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emradguy
Senior Member
emradguy
Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 3,165
Location: Houston
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Duetto II; Twist v2
Grinder: M Major, Macap M4, Pharos,...
Drip: Espro presses; Aeropress
Roaster: H-B "List of Favorites"
Posted Tue May 14, 2013, 7:23am
Subject: Re: Best French press grinder
 

Steve,

Those are good points you raise on time to grind with the Lido based on coarseness setting.  In line with that, I ought to put my previous comments into perspective by adding what my settings and times are...

I have my Lido set at 1.75 and I typically use 20g doses, for 300 ml water at 200F in my Espro press. I use a 20 sec bloom, then pour the rest of the water, then stir at 1.5 minutes from start of the bloom.  I press at 3 minutes total extraction.  

I haven't done any math at all regarding extraction ratios...ever...so I have no idea what mine is, but I do like what I get in the cup. I will admit, that even with the Espro 2-stage filter, I do get a small amount of silt in the cup...and I've attributed that to my relatively fine grind setting.

I've played around with coarseness settings (between 1.5 and 2.5), dosing (18g - 22g), temperature variations (tried up to about 10 degrees cooler), and extraction time variations (up to 4 minutes).  However, I haven't tried the combo of very coarse grind and long extraction time (maybe I just don't have the patience?).  Although, I should say that years ago, before I got into espresso, and only owned a whirlybird bean hacker (which I used similar to you describe), I typically did a 30 sec bloom, 3 minute stir and 5 minute total extraction in a standard Bodum press.  Having said that, the press coffee I'm making now puts that crap to shame (which of course, I thought was excellent at the time).

Curious to hear your thoughts...


(don't mean to hijack the thread, but rather, am thinking that OP would also be interested in this portion of the discussion, as it does relate to his quest)


.

 
.
Always remember the most important thing is what ends up in your cup!
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jcfiend
Senior Member


Joined: 10 May 2013
Posts: 13
Location: texas
Expertise: I live coffee

Posted Tue May 14, 2013, 8:37am
Subject: Re: Best French press grinder
 

emradguy Said:

My math says 2 minutes for 50g. But what's one minute?  I have a Skerton with the OE bearing mod for press pot. My plan was to compare it to the Lido, but I just can't seem to not use the Lido...yeah, it's just that good! Though I must admit my experience is skewed as I use an Espro press, rather than a regular FP.

Posted May 13, 2013 link

I'd need much more than 50g for a full carafe of drip coffee (brewed), hence at least 3 minutes.  But thanks.  I''ve read a bit on the Lido and am leaning that way.
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jcfiend
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Joined: 10 May 2013
Posts: 13
Location: texas
Expertise: I live coffee

Posted Tue May 14, 2013, 8:51am
Subject: Re: Best French press grinder
 

oktyone Said:

If keeping fines out of the cup is absolutely necessary i'd either:

1) Buy a fine mesh sieve, and just sieve out the fines before brewing (You'd be loosing from 10% to 30% of your coffee depending on your grinder)

2) Get an Espro Press: double filtering apparently works pretty good in this brewer, resulting in cleaner cups.

3) Brew in a normal french press and filter the coffee through a drip cone using either paper filters, or cloth/flannel filters for a bit more body..those with larger holes work best as they drip faster and prevent the coffee from cooling too much, preheating your caraffe helps a lot.

All options are considerably cheaper than your 400$ limit

Also worth considering is the Rosco hand grinder, i wouldn't pay nowhere near that  much for a hand grinder, but it's supposed to be amazingly consistent and fast.

The way i see it, fines are not the end of the world, and are actually a characteristic of this brewing method, if brewed correctly they rarely introduce bitterness, they just add more body but mute some delicate/fruitier flavors.

Posted May 14, 2013 link

I actually don't mind the fines as far as texture is concerned, so screening isn't an issue.  But the fines produced by my vario impart a very sour taste to the coffee.  Reducing the particle size (using a slightly finer grind) reduces the fines to some degree and greatly reduces the sour taste, but the end product is very flat and bland.  Using a sieve to filter out the fines at the coursest setting on the Vario after grinding is only partially productive, as I've noticed that a enough fines will remain to impart the sour taste.  I don't know if this is because of the static or the oils, but I've found this to be the case.  Again, very little fines = great flavor.  A lot of fines = yuck.  And that's with 2 different coffees.
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jpender
Senior Member
jpender
Joined: 11 Jul 2011
Posts: 710
Location: California
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: OE LIDO
Vac Pot: S/S Moka Pot
Drip: Aeropress
Posted Tue May 14, 2013, 8:58am
Subject: Re: Best French press grinder
 

I don't know how much faster it would be but you'd work less if you electrified a LIDO.
The manufacturer sells an inexpensive connector to allow use of an electric hand drill: Click Here (www.orphanespresso.com)

Here's a thread with a request similar to yours from about six months ago: http://coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/604521
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jcfiend
Senior Member


Joined: 10 May 2013
Posts: 13
Location: texas
Expertise: I live coffee

Posted Tue May 14, 2013, 9:02am
Subject: Re: Best French press grinder
 

Netphilosopher Said:

On the LIDO the speed of grinding all depends on how coarse you want.

For a 5-6 minute French Press steep, what do you want the dissolution to be?

If you're looking for ~1.25% strength with a 16:1 Water Brew Ratio, (this would be the classic "20%" corresponding percolation extraction percentage), this means approximately LIDO-3.0 to -3.25.  Average grind size is probably around 1.3mm, or about 40-60% retention on a #14 or #16 sieve.

You can probably grind about 50g in about a minute for LIDO-3.0

For LIDO-2.0 it will take more like two minutes.  5-6 minute steep for LIDO-2.0 will be about 1mm average grind size (~50% retention on #18 sieve), and a nice chocolately dissolution more like 21-21.5%, and 1.3ish% strength with a 16 Water Brew Ratio.



LIDO-0.0 will take over 3 1/2 minutes (but you'll end up with really fine talc for great turkish or a very interesting AeroPress brew).  Also, the grind effort goes up a CRAPLOAD when you drop lower than LIDO-1.25 or so.

An alternative that you can try is the Bodum Bistro Burr Grinder.  Before my LIDO (now my primary grinder), I relied on this grinder even more than my Hario Mini Mill Slim.  Consistent, and very repeatable extractions/dissolutions with same setting.  Particles have a slightly elongated shape for the full French Press setting, but one notch finer is pretty darn good.

(The Hario MMS required constant fiddling to get a consistent-ish grind, and the small burr made it difficult to grind lots of coffee - WAY too slow for your needs)

If you're thinking of dumping $400 on a grinder, I feel for French Press there are many options out there between $70 and $150.  Some of the used Baratza products you probably won't go wrong with.

The key to French Press is waiting for the particles to waterlog and sink before pressing, and don't stir for at least a minute prior to pressing.  The smallest particles undergo saturation and solvation VERY quickly and drop to the bottom - the biggest particles will float for a long time.  After 4 minutes, you can sometimes skim the floating particles with a spoon and see they are nearing 2mm or so.  

Though it's mostly art and technique when compared to the technical aspect of burr grinding, it's entirely possible to get a decent French Press with a whirlyblade if you just don't grind them crazy long (10 seconds total in 3-5 pulses is probably all you need).  Just chop them a half capacity of the whirlyblade at a time so you don't chop the lower bits of stratified beans into talcum powder while the upper layers remain somewhat untouched.

Posted May 14, 2013 link

Thanks so much for the excellent post.  I'm leaning heavily toward the Lido, as it seems to surface consistently in fp conversations.  And believe me, I've followed fp suggestions to the "T" (whatever the "T" means - another converstation for another post), as I've tried to eliminate the variables toward making those elusive cups of silk and wonder.  I consistently come back to an abundance of fines as the culprit.  Based on your post and others, I'm guessing the Lido provides a cleaner grind.
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jcfiend
Senior Member


Joined: 10 May 2013
Posts: 13
Location: texas
Expertise: I live coffee

Posted Tue May 14, 2013, 9:13am
Subject: Re: Best French press grinder
 

emradguy Said:

My math says 2 minutes for 50g. But what's one minute?  I have a Skerton with the OE bearing mod for press pot. My plan was to compare it to the Lido, but I just can't seem to not use the Lido...yeah, it's just that good! Though I must admit my experience is skewed as I use an Espro press, rather than a regular FP.

Posted May 13, 2013 link

And I probably need to look into an Espro.  I don't normally do 50g at a time, but when guests are around, I'm thinking I'll be working like a machine on a hand grinder to keep them happy - which is why I'd probably choose to make drip instead of press.  Which may also mean I'll use the Vario for drip and skip the presss if its that much bother.  Sigh.............  I think I'll just buy into a local coffee bar................  after I make that first million.
Thanks for the post.
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jcfiend
Senior Member


Joined: 10 May 2013
Posts: 13
Location: texas
Expertise: I live coffee

Posted Tue May 14, 2013, 9:25am
Subject: Re: Best French press grinder
 

emradguy Said:

Steve,

Those are good points you raise on time to grind with the Lido based on coarseness setting.  In line with that, I ought to put my previous comments into perspective by adding what my settings and times are...

I have my Lido set at 1.75 and I typically use 20g doses, for 300 ml water at 200F in my Espro press. I use a 20 sec bloom, then pour the rest of the water, then stir at 1.5 minutes from start of the bloom.  I press at 3 minutes total extraction.  

I haven't done any math at all regarding extraction ratios...ever...so I have no idea what mine is, but I do like what I get in the cup. I will admit, that even with the Espro 2-stage filter, I do get a small amount of silt in the cup...and I've attributed that to my relatively fine grind setting.

I've played around with coarseness settings (between 1.5 and 2.5), dosing (18g - 22g), temperature variations (tried up to about 10 degrees cooler), and extraction time variations (up to 4 minutes).  However, I haven't tried the combo of very coarse grind and long extraction time (maybe I just don't have the patience?).  Although, I should say that years ago, before I got into espresso, and only owned a whirlybird bean hacker (which I used similar to you describe), I typically did a 30 sec bloom, 3 minute stir and 5 minute total extraction in a standard Bodum press.  Having said that, the press coffee I'm making now puts that crap to shame (which of course, I thought was excellent at the time).

Curious to hear your thoughts...

(don't mean to hijack the thread, but rather, am thinking that OP would also be interested in this portion of the discussion, as it does relate to his quest)


.

Posted May 14, 2013 link

And am I correct in saying that the "Lido" to which you refer is the "Porlex" linked on some of the other posts?
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emradguy
Senior Member
emradguy
Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 3,165
Location: Houston
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Duetto II; Twist v2
Grinder: M Major, Macap M4, Pharos,...
Drip: Espro presses; Aeropress
Roaster: H-B "List of Favorites"
Posted Tue May 14, 2013, 9:41am
Subject: Re: Best French press grinder
 

jcfiend Said:

And am I correct in saying that the "Lido" to which you refer is the "Porlex" linked on some of the other posts?

Posted May 14, 2013 link

No, not at all.  Those are two entirely different grinders.  The OE is made in Olympia, Washington and the Porlex is made in Japan...and the cost is different too.  I think the Porlex goes for around $60-70, while the OE Lido is $165. Also, except for used units, the OE Lido is ONLY available from Orphan Espresso through their website www.orphanespresso.com ...and sadly, they are now listed as out of stock.  If you email them, I would expect Doug or Barb to reply with an anticipated in stock date.

I was going to insert an image from goggle, but then when I typed in "OE Lido", in addition to getting several images of the Lido, there was a nice one of Angelina Jolie...at first I thought wtf does she have to do with the Lido grinder, but immediately realized it doesn't matter.  Anyways, who could deprive you of seeing that photo?  So, if you do the same...type into Google search "OE Lido", select "images", there should be at least one (it was the first hit for me) of the black neoprene carrying case with the name in white ink, next to the grinder and accessories (that are all included), along with a nice bonus photo of AJ :)

 
.
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MerleApAmber
Senior Member


Joined: 13 Nov 2012
Posts: 203
Location: Atlanta
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville BES900
Grinder: Baratza Preciso + Esatto
Vac Pot: Yuma
Drip: bah-humbug
Roaster: Hot Top 2K P
Posted Tue May 14, 2013, 9:42am
Subject: Re: Best French press grinder
 

Netphilosopher Said:

about 1mm average grind size (~50% retention on #18 sieve), and a nice chocolately dissolution more like 21-21.5%, and 1.3ish% strength with a 16 Water Brew Ratio.

The key to French Press is waiting for the particles to waterlog and sink before pressing, and don't stir for at least a minute prior to pressing.  The smallest particles undergo saturation and solvation VERY quickly and drop to the bottom - the biggest particles will float for a long time.  After 4 minutes, you can sometimes skim the floating particles with a spoon and see they are nearing 2mm or so.  

Posted May 14, 2013 link

Steve P., Thank you for the insight! Obviously, by citation, you see what interested me.
Best regard, Chris
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Netphilosopher
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Posts: 1,602
Location: USA
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Tue May 14, 2013, 9:54am
Subject: ...
 

...
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