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Discussions > Coffee > Machines > Vince Fedele's...  
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Lee_M
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Posted Sun Dec 2, 2012, 7:33pm
Subject: Vince Fedele's NBC Talk
 

Does anyone have a working link to Vince's talk at this year's Nordic Barista Cup? James Hoffman's source seems to be dead: http://www.jimseven.com/2012/08/16/vince-fedeles-nbc-talk/
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Netphilosopher
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Posted Mon Dec 3, 2012, 4:37am
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jpender
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Posted Mon Dec 3, 2012, 2:26pm
Subject: Re: Vince Fedele's NBC Talk
 

You can still download the PDF that has the slides: Click Here (nordicbaristacup.com)
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Lee_M
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Posted Mon Dec 3, 2012, 2:31pm
Subject: Re: Vince Fedele's NBC Talk
 

The slides are still online, but I have a couple of questions for anyone who saw it.

  1. The number for solute in liquid retained for drip is 0.0. That seems pretty incredible to me. Did Vince have any explanation of how this could be? If there are still unextracted solids in the grounds, it seems some would be extracted into the retained liquid. More generally, what was his explanation for the differences in solute in retained liquid between drip and infusion methods?

  2. The liquid retained for both methods is 2g/g of coffee. Is this number going to hold for methods like Aeropress and syphon/vacuum, where air pressure forces liquid from the grounds? If not, will we need to recalculate dosage to account for differences in amount of liquid retained across infusion methods? E.g., maybe a press pot requires a 14% higher dose than drip to reach equivalent strength and extraction yield, but an Aeropress only requires 10%, once we account for the difference in the mass of the retained liquid.
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jpender
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Posted Mon Dec 3, 2012, 4:03pm
Subject: Re: Vince Fedele's NBC Talk
 

I didn't actually watch the entire thing as I found it a little boring. I wasn't hearing anything I hadn't heard before.

Lee_M Said:

The number for solute in liquid retained for drip is 0.0. That seems pretty incredible to me.

Posted December 3, 2012 link

I'm pretty certain that this is just meant to be a "good enough" approximation. Compared to the concentration in an immersion brew with drip it is effectively zero. The basic idea is that with drip you're continually washing away the solute, reducing the concentration over time, whereas with immersion you reach a maximum concentration and then simply drain some of this liquid away. That's not an exact description but it's close enough, and it's an improvement over treating immersion and drip as identical.

Lee_M Said:

The liquid retained for both methods is 2g/g of coffee. Is this number going to hold for methods like Aeropress and syphon/vacuum, where air pressure forces liquid from the grounds? If not, will we need to recalculate dosage to account for differences in amount of liquid retained across infusion methods? E.g., maybe a press pot requires a 14% higher dose than drip to reach equivalent strength and extraction yield, but an Aeropress only requires 10%, once we account for the difference in the mass of the retained liquid.

Posted December 3, 2012 link

It won't be the same. I think the Mojo software allows you to enter a value.
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Lee_M
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Lee_M
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Posted Mon Dec 3, 2012, 4:29pm
Subject: Re: Vince Fedele's NBC Talk
 

That makes sense, thanks. Do you know how much liquid an Aeropress or syphon typically retains?
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jpender
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jpender
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Posted Mon Dec 3, 2012, 6:10pm
Subject: Re: Vince Fedele's NBC Talk
 

Lee_M Said:

...maybe a press pot requires a 14% higher dose than drip to reach equivalent strength and extraction yield, but an Aeropress only requires 10%, once we account for the difference in the mass of the retained liquid.

Posted December 3, 2012 link

For immersion brewing, this only matters if you are topping up with hot water to achieve the same final volume of coffee. For a given extraction and brew ratio the strength in an immersion brew is independent of the amount of liquid retained. More liquid retained just means you have less coffee in the cup.

Lee_M Said:

That makes sense, thanks. Do you know how much liquid an Aeropress or syphon typically retains?

Posted December 3, 2012 link

I don't have a vac pot, but in an Aeropress I've seen it vary between about 1.2 and 1.7 grams of water retained per gram of initial dry coffee.

This amount of variation is inconsequential from my viewpoint. Since I use ~20g of dry coffee it means the final coffee volume varies about +/- 1 teaspoon.
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Lee_M
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Posted Mon Dec 3, 2012, 6:49pm
Subject: Re: Vince Fedele's NBC Talk
 

jpender Said:

For immersion brewing, this only matters if you are topping up with hot water to achieve the same final volume of coffee. For a given extraction and brew ratio the strength in an immersion brew is independent of the amount of liquid retained. More liquid retained just means you have less coffee in the cup.

Posted December 3, 2012 link

Oh, I see. In terms of efficiency, then:

Assuming 20% extraction:
If Aeropress retains 1.5 g/g, it requires 74 grams of coffee per liter of 1.35 TDS brewed coffee
Standard infusion requires 76 grams of coffee per liter of 1.35 TDS brewed coffee
Drip requires 67 grams of coffee per liter of 1.35 TDS brewed coffee

Not a big efficiency gain for Aeropress, but it's something.
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Netphilosopher
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Posted Tue Dec 4, 2012, 10:14am
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Netphilosopher
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Posted Tue Dec 4, 2012, 10:18am
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