Gregr Senior Member Joined: 6 Mar 2010 Posts: 188 Location: Los Angeles, Ca Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Livia 90 Grinder: Moka Drip: CCD Roaster: Hottop B
Posted Mon Jul 9, 2012, 8:35am Subject: What brewing method yields the widest range of flavors?
As I look forward to my soon to arrive vacuum pot I've been wondering- will the new brewer highlight varietal flavors as much as an espresso machine does? It's apples to oranges I know... How about the question in the title- what brewing method would you use to get the most out of your coffee bean?
Posted Mon Jul 9, 2012, 9:44am Subject: Re: What brewing method yields the widest range of flavors?
Gregr Said:
As I look forward to my soon to arrive vacuum pot I've been wondering- will the new brewer highlight varietal flavors as much as an espresso machine does? It's apples to oranges I know... How about the question in the title- what brewing method would you use to get the most out of your coffee bean?
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
Posted Mon Jul 9, 2012, 7:48pm Subject: Re: What brewing method yields the widest range of flavors?
Who you talk to.
I think that cleaner brewing methods will highlight more subtle flavors than methods which let fines and particulates through. People love the Chemex for this reason as well as the Hario, BeeHouse, other manual pourovers (paper and cloth filters) and the cloth filtered Vac-pot. Some do find that the Chemex, specifically due to the very thick filter, actually takes away some of the oils and fats that account for a percentage of the taste. I have found the Chemex a bit TOO clean. I have a Vac-pot but honestly haven't used it enough to have an opinion about it.
What it comes down to (as always) is very personal. We all have our own idea of the best profile (or will in your case) and we all taste the same thing differently depending on a wide array of factors: our mood, our surroundings, who we're with, what we ate, what we expect . . .
Ultimately you can believe what someone else says and just go with it or experiment yourself and find out what your taste buds and olfactory bulb say is IT.
And I would say the answer to your Vac-pot/espresso comparison is no. Espresso is, on average, brewed to 10% TDS/strength. Coffee brewing in America is about 1.3% (generally 1.25-1.35%). That is the major difference.
IMAWriter Senior Member Joined: 4 Jul 2002 Posts: 5,483 Location: Brentwood, TN Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Nothing at the moment Grinder: Vario-W,Preciso-Esatto/KyM... Vac Pot: Adcraft SS, Yama 8 cup Drip: Brazen.Chemex, Hario, Clever... Roaster: Behmor 1600, CO/UFO combo
Posted Mon Jul 9, 2012, 8:10pm Subject: Re: What brewing method yields the widest range of flavors?
Well, while Dan's most ELOQUENT dissertation is probably enough to end this discussion (IMO...LOL) my .02:
A couple of years back, while in Lubbock Texas, I prepared a 3 cup by volume brew with a Cona Siphon brewer. The coffee was an Ethiopian Sidamo, professionally roasted. The resultant brew was the most elegant, complex, and flavorful cup of coffee I've ever had. However the brewer scares me to death, as I am clumsy. LOL
Posted Tue Jul 10, 2012, 7:03am Subject: Re: What brewing method yields the widest range of flavors?
IMAWriter Said:
Well, while Dan's most ELOQUENT dissertation is probably enough to end this discussion (IMO...LOL) my .02:
A couple of years back, while in Lubbock Texas, I prepared a 3 cup by volume brew with a Cona Siphon brewer. The coffee was an Ethiopian Sidamo, professionally roasted. The resultant brew was the most elegant, complex, and flavorful cup of coffee I've ever had. However the brewer scares me to death, as I am clumsy. LOL
I know what you mean! I just recently brewed 3 cups in my new Cona, of Sweet Maria's Sumatra Toba Batak Peaberry. It had to be the best brew I've ever tasted!! And this was only my 3rd or 4th brew with the siphon.
And, like you, I fear I'm going to break it every time I bring it to the sink to clean it! But the elegance and brew are worth the risk!!
Gregr Senior Member Joined: 6 Mar 2010 Posts: 188 Location: Los Angeles, Ca Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Livia 90 Grinder: Moka Drip: CCD Roaster: Hottop B
Posted Tue Jul 10, 2012, 8:17am Subject: Re: What brewing method yields the widest range of flavors?
I was hoping to get opinions- so thanks to those that offered theirs, special thanks for the TDS info regarding espresso v standard U.S. brewed coffee. I'm aware that anything to do with taste is subject to the taster's personal preference and physiology and I asked my question hoping for opinions- that's what the forum's about after all.
Posted Tue Jul 10, 2012, 10:35am Subject: Re: What brewing method yields the widest range of flavors?
theCoffeeScientist Said:
Who you talk to.
I think that cleaner brewing methods will highlight more subtle flavors than methods which let fines and particulates through. People love the Chemex for this reason as well as the Hario, BeeHouse, other manual pourovers (paper and cloth filters) and the cloth filtered Vac-pot. Some do find that the Chemex, specifically due to the very thick filter, actually takes away some of the oils and fats that account for a percentage of the taste. I have found the Chemex a bit TOO clean. I have a Vac-pot but honestly haven't used it enough to have an opinion about it.
What it comes down to (as always) is very personal. We all have our own idea of the best profile (or will in your case) and we all taste the same thing differently depending on a wide array of factors: our mood, our surroundings, who we're with, what we ate, what we expect . . .
Ultimately you can believe what someone else says and just go with it or experiment yourself and find out what your taste buds and olfactory bulb say is IT.
And I would say the answer to your Vac-pot/espresso comparison is no. Espresso is, on average, brewed to 10% TDS/strength. Coffee brewing in America is about 1.3% (generally 1.25-1.35%). That is the major difference.
Most of my samples of espresso at *$s, Caribou and Bigbee are closer to ~5% strength. Most of the time, each SINGLE shot seems to be around 28-33 grams. The hi-volume shops typically run doubles (aka doppio) because the process is more controllable. Just like pourover single cups being a bit more sensitive to variables than brewing a full on pot of coffee.
I've also sampled some of the local specialty coffee shops, they have dabbled with some updosing and ristrettos, and will sometimes end up in the 7% range, but full 10% is a fairly rare exception for the hi-volume coffee shops. You can't go to a *$s and get more than a blank stare if you ask for a ristretto.
My gaggia syncrony compact, and my friend's gaggia super auto (I forget which one) are pretty much 5.4% and trend toward a single shot of ~35g and uses in the neighborhood of 7-9grams of coffee.
That's where the math comes in - to get a single shot (30g) strength of 10%, you'll have to extract 20% of 15 grams of coffee. That's basically a double sized basket (because fitting it into a single portafilter would be extremely deep) - at least that's how a barista friend has explained it to me. A ristretto (again, as explained by my friend) is adjusting the grind and using updosing to achieve proper extraction but yielding only 1 shot - so describing a single shot of ~10% strength or more is technically a "ristretto" (properly extracted coffee with less water in same percolation time of ~25seconds).
15-19g seems to be what the *$s normal superautos use for coffee to produce 60g of espresso - it's ground on the spot in the machine, and this is back-checking the discarded pucks (hence the large range). In fact, one of my local starbucks tends to run underextracted (about 4.6%) - I've told them but they are PBTC button-pushers, not real baristas, so what can one expect? <insert "oh well" shrug here>
According to espresso Italiano.org, shot of espresso is defined as: • Necessary portion of ground coffee 7 g ± 0,5 • Exit temperature of water from the unit 88°C ± 2°C • Temperature of the drink in the cup 67°C ± 3°C • Entry water pressure 9 bar ± 1 • Percolation time 25 seconds ± 2,5 seconds • Viscosity at 45°C > 1,5 mPa s • Total fat > 2 mg/ml • Caffeine < 100 mg/cup • Millilitres in the cup (including foam) 25 ml ± 2,5
They say including foam, but considering foam can be over 10ml itself, I find this dubious.
If you pull a shot from 7g of coffee to produce 20ml of espresso (not the foam, the actual solution), it's 7% strength if you actually achieve 20% extraction.
The model espresso production from the chain shops I've been able to put together is: 16g coffee 60g espresso produced at 5.15-5.45% strength (two shots standard)
The multi kilobuck superautos are very consistent.
I did have a chance to sample a rockin ristretto made from a blend of Ethiopia Sid + Brazil (50-50), hand tamped (not from a superauto): 16.1g coffee 30.9g Espresso, 10.2% strength. That's an extraction of 19.6%, but you won't find anything like it in a chain store. Sad thing is I only got to sample a bit more than 3/4 of it, because you have to filter the espresso to remove fines for consistent VST measurement.
Sorry if my last post came off wrong, Gregr. I was trying to be clever but it was pointed out to me by someone that it probably didn't come off that way.
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
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