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EricBNC
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EricBNC
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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Espresso: QM Silvano, LP Stradivarius,...
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Drip: Bonavita BV-1800,...
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Posted Fri Jul 13, 2012, 10:43am
Subject: Re: Looking for a quality, medium-sized coffee machine
 

Eiron Said:

...you could try something like the made-in-China Bonavita brewer (also SCAA "certified") at $150. But you just have to recognize that you're getting a lot of unknowns with that brewer (durability/longevity, brewer construction materials & safety design, manufacturing practices, lack of in-depth review/teardown/scrutiny, etc)...

It's a journey....

Posted July 13, 2012 link

Not sure about the unknowns you mention. Let's journey back to 1982 for some answers. There I will show you what a made in China 30 year old Melitta (Designers of the Bonavita Aroma Exellence based BV-1800 series) looks like in the photo below and I will describe it's function here: Water flowing through the grounds 30 seconds from start with cold filtered tap water, 190 degree temps coming out of the cone (still need to thread my thermo-couple into the slurry but 200 degrees is a given), pot finishes in less than six minutes.

This performance matches your Dutch brewer, and it matches the Bonavita BV-1800's performance. Not bad for 30 year old German designed, Chinese manufactured coffee maker.

My Bonavita looks a million times better on the outside and it's shower head has a more efficient design - positive design evolution makes for a great journey : )

EricBNC: IMG_1416 cg1.jpg
(Click for larger image)

 
I chew coffee beans with my teeth while gargling with 195 F water to enjoy coffee. What is this "coffee brewing" device you speak of?
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__________
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Espresso: Machine now fixed ;o)
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Posted Fri Jul 13, 2012, 12:09pm
Subject: Re: Looking for a quality, medium-sized coffee machine
 

Eiron Said:

you could try something like the made-in-China Bonavita brewer (also SCAA "certified") at $150. But you just have to recognize that you're getting a lot of unknowns with that brewer (durability/longevity, brewer construction materials & safety design, manufacturing practices, lack of in-depth review/teardown/scrutiny, etc). I disagree with JPF that it has a better spray pattern, but it does have a different spray pattern. It also has its own quirks, such as having the filter basket sit on top of the pot rather than being attached to the brewer, & not allowing reduced flow for brewing fewer cups.  And since it brews eight 5 oz cups rather than eight 4 oz cups, you'll always be at the "short end" of the brewing cycle. It also doesn't appear to be as "futz-friendly" as the TechniVorm, but that would assume that you want to futz with the brewing, & I don't get the impression that you do. (I sure don't!)

Posted July 13, 2012 link

I've got a Technivorm (the design where the filter basket sits on top of the pot, by the way which I very much like for its simplicity) and also the original Melitta version of the Bonavita which has been available in Europe for several years, and a lot longer than that in the slightly earlier versions. I have one of those as well - a glass jug version of the Aroma Grande which makes 1.6 litres.  That's a bit too much for everyday, but great for guests, and it works just as well.

Melitta is a long established company with a reputation to keep. Bear in mind though that the Melitta company in the US is only a name badge sold to a US corporation (Hamilton Beach ?) and they do not sell their own range of brewers in the US.

The original Melitta version of the Bonavita is their "flagship" domestic brewer range in Europe, and although it may not have the build characteristics of a Technivorm - it is designed more for mass production than a Technivorm - within that constraint they have not skimped on its quality or performance. It wouldn't be capable of CE certification if it didn't meet stringent standards.

As far as I know, the re-badged version available in the US as "Bonavita" is identical apart from running at 110v.  

I would heartily recommend it to anyone who doesn't want to pay the price asked for Technivorms in the US.  (Which are much less expensive here)

I have no axe to grind in comparing the two. They are both excellent devices.
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Intrepid510
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Joined: 30 Dec 2010
Posts: 355
Location: California
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sat Jul 14, 2012, 12:25pm
Subject: Re: Looking for a quality, medium-sized coffee machine
 

A few things...

Let's get things straight here buy a grinder first. It doesn't matter that you are just buying grocery store coffee, I find that by the end of a pre ground bag you end up with bitter swill that is better used for compost than consumption. I would say get a capresso infinity or Baratza encore. The Baratza grinders don't get as much static as the capresso, but they are a little more expensive, ten to twenty bucks depending.

If you are only brewing for yourself consider a clever dripper, real easy to use and ensures you are get fresh coffee. http://www.sweetmarias.com/clevercoffeedripperpictorial.php

Personally I would at least consider the bonavita, don't take my word for it.

Click Here (blog.seattlecoffeegear.com)

Click Here (www.clivecoffee.com)

 
Less water, more grounds.
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Silas
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Joined: 17 Jun 2012
Posts: 42
Location: Springfield, Louisiana
Expertise: Just starting

Grinder: Baratza Virtuoso
Vac Pot: Cona C,  Hario Nouveau
Drip: Chemex
Posted Mon Jul 16, 2012, 6:44pm
Subject: Re: Looking for a quality, medium-sized coffee machine
 

My Capresso brewer died about 2 months ago:  a very good coffee maker with burr grinder attached.  It was my second one in about 6 years.  But, in one, the heater element burned out, and the other one, it would not stop heating.  It was time for another.

I saw the reviews of the Bonavita 1800 and finally bought one on Amazon for the $150 with thermal carafe (first thermal carafe i ever had.) Had it for about a month or so, use it every morning for 26 oz of brew.  Makes very good coffee.

 About a week ago, I decided to try and experiment and got out my kettle and did a pour over to let fresh ground, online beans bloom....for a little over a minute, then shoved the carafe and blooming coffee under the brewer:  EVEN BETTER coffee!  

Of course, I've been looking at the frenzy over "Hallelujah" day for lots of folks on the forum, for the unveiling of the Brazen.  From what I've read and seen, this PROMISES to be revolutionary.  And, no doubt, the "upgrader" that I am, I'm sure to buy one.....after watching others try it out for about 6 months.

But....now is now!  Best $150 I've spent in awhile....the Bonavita.  

And, maybe later, Best $199 I'll spend.....on a Brazen.  

Coffee waits for no man!!
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Eiron
Senior Member
Eiron
Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 343
Location: Loveland, Colorado
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill 0930
Grinder: Quick Mill 031,...
Drip: TechniVorm KBTS
Roaster: Behmor 1600, Presto Poplite
Posted Thu Jul 19, 2012, 11:13am
Subject: Re: Looking for a quality, medium-sized coffee machine
 

Silas Said:

... About a week ago, I decided to try and experiment and got out my kettle and did a pour over to let fresh ground, online beans bloom....for a little over a minute, then shoved the carafe and blooming coffee under the brewer:  EVEN BETTER coffee!  

Of course, I've been looking at the frenzy over "Hallelujah" day for lots of folks on the forum, for the unveiling of the Brazen.  From what I've read and seen, this PROMISES to be revolutionary.  And, no doubt, the "upgrader" that I am, I'm sure to buy one.....after watching others try it out for about 6 months.

But....now is now!  Best $150 I've spent in awhile....the Bonavita.  

And, maybe later, Best $199 I'll spend.....on a Brazen.  ...

Posted July 16, 2012 link

Hi Silas, of course you do realize that the Brazen is simply mimicking the original pour-over technique millions of coffee drinkers have performed since the early 1900's, right? You can purchase all of the equipment necessary to brew coffee this way for as little as $30 (or include a thermal carafe & spend as little as $50 total).

 
"Just what I need - another 'geek' label..."
- my friend Mark, on being told of Coffee Geek's existence

Good, affordable espresso: www.coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/355707
Coffee's hot enough for OCD: www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/330079
Personal & global health: http://www.broomfieldenterprise.com/ci_12802509
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Eiron
Senior Member
Eiron
Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 343
Location: Loveland, Colorado
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill 0930
Grinder: Quick Mill 031,...
Drip: TechniVorm KBTS
Roaster: Behmor 1600, Presto Poplite
Posted Thu Jul 19, 2012, 12:00pm
Subject: Re: Looking for a quality, medium-sized coffee machine
 

EricBNC Said:

Not sure about the unknowns you mention.

Posted July 13, 2012 link

That's exactly the problem we all have, isn't it? Nobody knows, & the answers remain unavailable.


EricBNC Said:

Let's journey back to 1982 for some answers. There I will show you what a made in China 30 year old Melitta ... looks like in the photo below and I will describe it's function here: Water flowing through the grounds 30 seconds from start with cold filtered tap water, 190 degree temps coming out of the cone (still need to thread my thermo-couple into the slurry but 200 degrees is a given), pot finishes in less than six minutes.

Posted July 13, 2012 link

I appreciate the pic of the"classic" Melitta drip brewer, but how does a 30 yr old unidentified model of unverified origin-of-manufacture brewer relate to either a brand new design from a different design group, or a completely different design from a completely different manufacturer? And why would anyone assume that "200 is a given" for any brewer, much less the one you're displaying?


EricBNC Said:

My Bonavita looks a million times better on the outside and it's shower head has a more efficient design - positive design evolution makes for a great journey

Posted July 13, 2012 link

Obviously, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder," isn't it? "Sleek" to some is merely "bland" to others. But it seems the shower head design of the Bonavita may not be quite as efficient as you believe. In another thread, CG member missy_ provided this information directly from the manufacturer:

missy_ Said:

... the grinds are getting thoroughly saturated, and so I don't feel the need to interfere, especially since Bonavita did say [the water] would be coming out unevenly.

Posted July 1, 2012 link

In the same thread, missy_ also states:

missy_ Said:

... In the "Bonavita Brewing Perfect Coffee Everytime" manual that comes with the coffee maker, it states under "Recommended Tips,"

The ideal brewing for perfect coffee is to brew 8 cups of coffee. For ideal extraction levels, brew your coffee in 6-8 cup increments, and fully enjoy the best coffee from this machine.

(My notes here: Although if you brew in 6-cup increments, you will not get the proper brew times, so the suggested 8 cups will get you the proper brew times for the best cup of coffee. ...)

Posted July 17, 2012 link

Obviously, this "recommendation" from the Bonavita's manual puts the volume of brewed coffee well beyond the 2 or 3 cups cr0786 is looking to have a brewer make. A brewer with a variable flow valve (like the TechniVorm's) would seem to be a necessary addition to the Bonavita for it to meet the desired brewed volume.


I know you certainly have honorable intentions for making your comments, but you haven't provided any new clarifications or relevant information for anyone to arrive at an objective conclusion regarding the Bonavita's unknowns, or even to simply validate that it's completely "evolved" at this stage of its design.

 
"Just what I need - another 'geek' label..."
- my friend Mark, on being told of Coffee Geek's existence

Good, affordable espresso: www.coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/355707
Coffee's hot enough for OCD: www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/330079
Personal & global health: http://www.broomfieldenterprise.com/ci_12802509
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EricBNC
Senior Member
EricBNC
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
Posts: 1,869
Location: North Carolina
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: QM Silvano, LP Stradivarius,...
Grinder: K30, Major, Preciso, Pharos,...
Vac Pot: Sunbeam C30, Bodum Santos...
Drip: Bonavita BV-1800,...
Roaster: Behmor, Melitta, Fresh...
Posted Thu Jul 19, 2012, 12:27pm
Subject: Re: Looking for a quality, medium-sized coffee machine
 

Eiron Said:

Obviously, this "recommendation" from the Bonavita's manual puts the volume of brewed coffee well beyond the 2 or 3 cups cr0786 is looking to have a brewer make.

Posted July 19, 2012 link

Another view: "Re: Bonavita Automatic Brewer - 1st Look"

leesill Said:

Hey, I work for Prima Coffee Equipment and I'm a little late on this thread, but I did just want to verify that the Bonavita does run a consistent temperature throughout the entirety of the brewing process.  We tested a 30g batch, and the slurry temperature was a consistent 202 degrees the whole time, 2:45, which is what I was aiming for for the grind setting we chose.  We should have them available for pre-order this week, the stainless option at $149, and the glas at $129, I believe.  Hope that helps!

Posted December 19, 2011 link

30g coffee is a 500mL water ratio, or around two 8 fl oz cups worth - just like a manual pour over it finishes brewing around 3 minutes.

__________ Said:

I've got a Technivorm (the design where the filter basket sits on top of the pot, by the way which I very much like for its simplicity) and also the original Melitta version of the Bonavita which has been available in Europe for several years, and a lot longer than that in the slightly earlier versions. I have one of those as well - a glass jug version of the Aroma Grande which makes 1.6 litres.  That's a bit too much for everyday, but great for guests, and it works just as well.

Melitta is a long established company with a reputation to keep. Bear in mind though that the Melitta company in the US is only a name badge sold to a US corporation (Hamilton Beach ?) and they do not sell their own range of brewers in the US.

The original Melitta version of the Bonavita is their "flagship" domestic brewer range in Europe, and although it may not have the build characteristics of a Technivorm - it is designed more for mass production than a Technivorm - within that constraint they have not skimped on its quality or performance. It wouldn't be capable of CE certification if it didn't meet stringent standards.

As far as I know, the re-badged version available in the US as "Bonavita" is identical apart from running at 110v.  

I would heartily recommend it to anyone who doesn't want to pay the price asked for Technivorms in the US.  (Which are much less expensive here)

I have no axe to grind in comparing the two. They are both excellent devices.

Posted July 13, 2012 link

Nice comparison from someone who has seen, used (and owns) both.

 
I chew coffee beans with my teeth while gargling with 195 F water to enjoy coffee. What is this "coffee brewing" device you speak of?
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__________
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Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 925
Location: .
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: Machine now fixed ;o)
Grinder: None
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Posted Thu Jul 19, 2012, 12:48pm
Subject: Re: Looking for a quality, medium-sized coffee machine
 

Knowns and unknowns....?

Ah, well, as in many areas of life, - The famous quote from D. Rumsfeld (and I could never have imagined quoting him... )

"There are known knowns; there are things we know that we know.
There are known unknowns; that is to say there are things that, we now know we don't know.
But there are also unknown unknowns there are things we do not know, we don't know."

Life is full of such worries.  I guess coffee makers not excepted  ;o)

I just know both of 'em work extremely well: can't detect any difference in the brew they produce: and both have endured a lot of use for quite some time (the Melitta more than the Technivorm probably).
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Eiron
Senior Member
Eiron
Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 343
Location: Loveland, Colorado
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill 0930
Grinder: Quick Mill 031,...
Drip: TechniVorm KBTS
Roaster: Behmor 1600, Presto Poplite
Posted Thu Jul 19, 2012, 1:52pm
Subject: Re: Looking for a quality, medium-sized coffee machine
 

(Apologies in advance to Rob...)

EricBNC Said:

Nice comparison from someone who has seen, used (and owns) both.

Posted July 19, 2012 link

From another thread:

__________ Said:

A Technivorm is likely to be with you for years and years. If it ever breaks, you'll get spares to repair it.

The Bonavita (original Melitta) is a very good machine which works extremely well. If it breaks, though, don't think it will be fixable. You can't open it without special drivers, so it certainly isn't designed for self-fixing

Unlike many, I own both machines, so think I'm qualified to express an opinion.  

Which is go for a Technivorm out of the two.

Posted June 27, 2012 link


Obviously Eric, we can go back & forth on this for quite a while. But that's not productive for any of us. Unfortunately, your investment with Bonavita has not instilled you with an objective view of the equipment. I'm fully aware of folks' reluctance to plunk down the cost of a TechniVorm based solely on the comparatively in-depth information available, & I even suggested that cr0786 consider the Bonavita as a lower-cost alternative. But the purchase does, in fact, come with unknowns.

It would be most helpful to everyone if you could provide clear answers to the questions that have already been asked. Leave conjecture, opinion, & personal prejudices off the table.

 
"Just what I need - another 'geek' label..."
- my friend Mark, on being told of Coffee Geek's existence

Good, affordable espresso: www.coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/355707
Coffee's hot enough for OCD: www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/330079
Personal & global health: http://www.broomfieldenterprise.com/ci_12802509
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__________
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Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 925
Location: .
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Espresso: Machine now fixed ;o)
Grinder: None
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Posted Thu Jul 19, 2012, 2:44pm
Subject: Re: Looking for a quality, medium-sized coffee machine
 

Yup, if you can afford it, buy the Technivorm (the original item you quote from me, was I think in response to someone trying to decide between the two, where the purchase of one or the other was the decision to be made).  It also brings work into the Netherlands rather than China.

I also said (and it is definitely relevant to its potential repairability),

"it may not have the build characteristics of a Technivorm - it is designed more for mass production than a Technivorm - within that constraint they have not skimped on its quality or performance".

I think that is fairly consistent with saying

"If it breaks, though, don't think it will be fixable. You can't open it without special drivers, so it certainly isn't designed for self-fixing"

True - it wasn't designed for that, and in several years use I havent had any reason to do it.

I also said though (about the Bonavita)  

"I would heartily recommend it to anyone who doesn't want to pay the price asked for Technivorms in the US".  

I stand by that on an initial cost/price performance basis for those who find Technivorms sold in the US unfortunately too pricey to consider.
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