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absence of surface oils
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ramack
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Joined: 1 May 2007
Posts: 10
Location: Centennial, CO
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Mon Jan 18, 2010, 7:10am
Subject: absence of surface oils
 

Hey,

I still consider myself a newbie at home roasting, but getting better.  I'm using a modified Toastess.

One of the better whole beans that I've purchased was at Costco, which was Sumatra.  One thing that I'm confused about is the absence of surface oils on the beans I'm roasting.  The store bought beans I've purchased have significant surface oils with the darker roasts, and there is not any visible indication that the beans have reached the 2C.

Why do the oily store bought beans not show the 2C?
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IMAWriter
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IMAWriter
Joined: 4 Jul 2002
Posts: 5,877
Location: Brentwood, TN
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Bezzera Strega
Grinder: Forte, OE Pharos,...
Vac Pot: Adcraft SS, Yama 8 cup
Drip: Brazen, Kalita, Chemex,...
Roaster: Behmor 1600, CO/UFO combo
Posted Mon Jan 18, 2010, 10:11pm
Subject: Re: absence of surface oils
 

Oily beans can either be 1), over roasted, or 2), old.

Costco roasts nearly every day, and you can ask when they we're roasted.

Oil is not necessarily a good thing, or something to look for.

If the coffee tastes especially bitter, it was over-roasted.
Any bean that is fresh roasted and is immediately oily has gone SIGNIFICANTLY into 2nd crack, most likely to 3rd crack! LOL




Edited for egregious typos.

 
Rob J (LMWDP #187)
My Music Production web site:
www.robertjason.com
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ramack
Senior Member


Joined: 1 May 2007
Posts: 10
Location: Centennial, CO
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Tue Jan 19, 2010, 6:53pm
Subject: Re: absence of surface oils
 

The Sumatra beans from Costco were from Kirkland Coffee Co. in Oregon.  When I've bought whole beans from Sam's or Costco, generally speaking, the more surface oil, the better the coffee and espresso (for me anyway).  The espresso is not bitter, nor is the coffee.  I've been able to use the same beans for coffee (made in a french press) and espresso.

Any guess why commercially roasted beans that are oily do not show signs of 2C?  My home roasted beans that have gone through the 2C, have a section of the surface missing about 3-4mm in diameter.
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ljguitar
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ljguitar
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 2,805
Location: Cheyenne
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Expobar Pulsar
Grinder: Mazzer SuperJolly • Baratza
Drip: Bunn • AeroPress
Roaster: Behmor•Variacs
Posted Wed Jan 20, 2010, 8:31am
Subject: Re: absence of surface oils
 

ramack Said:

...Any guess why commercially roasted beans that are oily do not show signs of 2C?  My home roasted beans that have gone through the 2C, have a section of the surface missing about 3-4mm in diameter.

Posted January 19, 2010 link

Hi Ramack...
A question and a guess or two...

First of all, what is a modified Tostess? I'm just trying to determine your roasting method. Also which greens beans did you take that far and where did you purchase them? (if it's too many varieties then just where you are getting your beans)

As to the missing surface 3-4mm in size on the beans you've taken into 2nd, are they like little chips of divots, and to the pieces end up in your coffee as well?

When you say the beans you purchased show no signs of 2nd crack, what do you mean? What is an indicator of beans having reached 2nd crack to your way of thinking?

I'm guessing what you are observing something I see when my wife buys her beans and that I've seen from local roasters. Beans which are roasted in large commercial drum roasters do have a sheen on the surface like it is polished that I have never seen on the surface of my beans no matter the roasting method employed here at home.

I would not say it's always oil, because my wife's beans are a City plus or Full City and have that sheen. I always assumed it is from the larger drum process...and not duplicatable at home.

The divots (if that is what you are seeing) often indicate your heat is ramping up so fast that parts of the beans are flying off (exploding off) your coffee beans. Whenever that happened on mine, I had to modify my roast to slow it up a bit. Others here may be able to contribute to the discussions and help with this too.

I take beans to a level of a near rolling 2nd crack without oil appearing for a few days. Be assured if you take them far enough into 2nd crack, oil will appear immediately (while still in the roaster). We are not fans of that dark of roasts, but my luthier (the guy who built my last guitar and works on my current ones) loves it shiny black...so for him I turn it into near-charcoal (French roast).


`

 
L  a  r  r  Y          J

<°)))><
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ramack
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Joined: 1 May 2007
Posts: 10
Location: Centennial, CO
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sat Jan 23, 2010, 9:37pm
Subject: Re: absence of surface oils
 

Thanks for the reply.

ljguitar Said:

First of all, what is a modified Tostess? I'm just trying to determine your roasting method. Also which greens beans did you take that far and where did you purchase them? (if it's too many varieties then just where you are getting your beans)

Posted January 20, 2010 link

Toastess is the mfg'r of this hot air popcorn popper.  I've separated the heater circuit from the fan motor circuit and can control the temperature.  I haven't added a thermometer yet, but I am looking for a type-K thermocouple to add to it so I can plot my roast profiles.  Right now I'm just roasting off of timing of the cracks and experimenting with the profile.  The "off the shelf" popper would get the beans to 1C within 3 minutes, and 2C in 6.  Batches that I stopped before and after the 2C was the worst tasting coffee I've ever had.  Now I can adjust the heat so that the 1C is reached anywhere( depending on the heat) from 8-25 minutes and the 2C is reached between 15-45 minutes.  One thing that I have noticed is that the long roasts are brewing better espresso and coffee.

ljguitar Said:

As to the missing surface 3-4mm in size on the beans you've taken into 2nd, are they like little chips of divots, and to the pieces end up in your coffee as well?

Posted January 20, 2010 link

Yes, chips fly out of the popper.

ljguitar Said:

When you say the beans you purchased show no signs of 2nd crack, what do you mean? What is an indicator of beans having reached 2nd crack to your way of thinking?

Posted January 20, 2010 link

I am only assuming that the beans have gone beyond the 2C because of the oil ( and yes the sheen too) on the bean surface.  There is so much surface oil that I have to tap my grinder (conical burr) hopper to get the beans into the burrs.  Maybe it's a bad assumption. But everything I've read indicate that oils don't surface until after the 2C.

ljguitar Said:

I'm guessing what you are observing something I see when my wife buys her beans and that I've seen from local roasters. Beans which are roasted in large commercial drum roasters do have a sheen on the surface like it is polished that I have never seen on the surface of my beans no matter the roasting method employed here at home.  

Posted January 20, 2010 link

One thing I had wondered is if the lack of surface oils is a result of the process.  IE if the popcorn popper is actually drying the oils as they are brought to the surface because of the larger air velocity over the bean surface compared to that of a commercial or larger roaster using heat from flames in a much larger roast chamber instead of a electric coil.

ljguitar Said:

I would not say it's always oil, because my wife's beans are a City plus or Full City and have that sheen. I always assumed it is from the larger drum process...and not duplicatable at home.

Posted January 20, 2010 link

If the gloss is not oil then is it much like stones being tumbled in a polisher and the surface is only becoming "smoother"

ljguitar Said:

The divots (if that is what you are seeing) often indicate your heat is ramping up so fast that parts of the beans are flying off (exploding off) your coffee beans. Whenever that happened on mine, I had to modify my roast to slow it up a bit. Others here may be able to contribute to the discussions and help with this too.

Posted January 20, 2010 link

I've slowed my roast profile considerably and it does improve the flavor; bitterness decreases, but I haven't reached the "perfect" roast yet.

ljguitar Said:

I take beans to a level of a near rolling 2nd crack without oil appearing for a few days.

Posted January 20, 2010 link

Do you roast them for a few days?  Or do you roast and let them "rest" for few days before the oils appear?

ljguitar Said:

Be assured if you take them far enough into 2nd crack, oil will appear immediately (while still in the roaster). We are not fans of that dark of roasts, but my luthier (the guy who built my last guitar and works on my current ones) loves it shiny black...so for him I turn it into near-charcoal (French roast).

Posted January 20, 2010 link

The whole bean roasted coffee I buy is french or espresso roast, anything less tastes like tea to me.  I like my coffee and espresso strong, black and not bitter.  I can buy beans and make that type of coffee/espresso, but my goal in home roasting is to roast my own beans to roast whole bean coffee like what I can buy.

All input is welcome.
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IMAWriter
Senior Member
IMAWriter
Joined: 4 Jul 2002
Posts: 5,877
Location: Brentwood, TN
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Bezzera Strega
Grinder: Forte, OE Pharos,...
Vac Pot: Adcraft SS, Yama 8 cup
Drip: Brazen, Kalita, Chemex,...
Roaster: Behmor 1600, CO/UFO combo
Posted Sat Jan 23, 2010, 9:52pm
Subject: Re: absence of surface oils
 

ramack Said:

The Sumatra beans from Costco were from Kirkland Coffee Co. in Oregon.  When I've bought whole beans from Sam's or Costco, generally speaking, the more surface oil, the better the coffee and espresso (for me anyway).  The espresso is not bitter, nor is the coffee.  I've been able to use the same beans for coffee (made in a french press) and espresso.

Posted January 19, 2010 link

Kirkland is Costco's "House" label. Their Kirkland labeled products are uniformly excellent, and usually manufactured  for Costco by the "name brand" folks.

Any guess why commercially roasted beans that are oily do not show signs of 2C?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by by "showing signs of 2nd crack.
I take my espresso blends into 2nd crack...maybe 5-8 seconds.
2nd crack roasts USUALLY, for me end up being full city+ at the most. Oil would not be showing, but that doesn't mean the bean didn't reach 2nd crack. Often, by the 5-6 post roast day a wee bit, a few drops will be showing.
In a manner, the deeper into 2nd, the more carbonization occurs,  and oils are forced to the surface. There is no "3rd" crack.
You are just going lots deeper into 2nd. Your taste buds like the flavor profile, so do what works for you, but realize that 2nd crack is a STAGE that will continue till you have briquets and a lovely fire. ;>D

 
Rob J (LMWDP #187)
My Music Production web site:
www.robertjason.com
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wabbitt
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wabbitt
Joined: 2 Jan 2010
Posts: 136
Location: california
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: stovetop pots,aeropress
Grinder: skerton, SoloGrind
Drip: melitta cone, chemex
Posted Sat Jan 23, 2010, 10:09pm
Subject: Re: absence of surface oils
 

I've never roasted beans, ever.  If I were to take that step, I have a wok and I have a hot air popper to start.  So this thread brought up some newbie questions...

Does Costco sell green beans?

Do I understand correctly, that you would only roast green beans?  I mean, you wouldn't roast beans that have already been roasted, would you?  Or would you want to take a light roast darker?

Thanks.

Julie >:3
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IMAWriter
Senior Member
IMAWriter
Joined: 4 Jul 2002
Posts: 5,877
Location: Brentwood, TN
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Bezzera Strega
Grinder: Forte, OE Pharos,...
Vac Pot: Adcraft SS, Yama 8 cup
Drip: Brazen, Kalita, Chemex,...
Roaster: Behmor 1600, CO/UFO combo
Posted Sat Jan 23, 2010, 10:28pm
Subject: Re: absence of surface oils
 

Julie, yes, roast only green.
My Costco will sell green. Their quality is OK, but not the "specialty grade" you'd get from vendors like Sweet Maria's, CBC, Burmans, etc.
Then again, especially while learning, why not get GOOD beans at $4 a lb, not shipping, etc. Excellent plan.
Interestingly, my Costco sells green at a slightly higher price per lb, due to the fact that coffee loses 15-20% of it's weight during the roasting process, so they have to charge a bit more for the green to make it worthwhile.

I'd go for the Sumatra, or Costa Rican. The Costa Rican bean is a wonderful bean to roast. usually an even roast.

Apologies to the OP for being a little off topic!

 
Rob J (LMWDP #187)
My Music Production web site:
www.robertjason.com
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Joel_B
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Joel_B
Joined: 9 Oct 2007
Posts: 1,823
Location: Pacific NW
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Astra Mega II
Grinder: Mazzer SJ, Virtuoso
Vac Pot: Yama 5 cup
Drip: nope, french press
Roaster: Behmor, WP, BBQ drum
Posted Sun Jan 24, 2010, 6:54am
Subject: Re: absence of surface oils
 

IMAWriter Said:

Interestingly, my Costco sells green at a slightly higher price per lb, due to the fact that coffee loses 15-20% of it's weight during the roasting process, so they have to charge a bit more for the green to make it worthwhile.

Posted January 23, 2010 link

Um, am I reading this right?  That seems like completely backwards reasoning because they AREN'T losing 15-20% when selling it green.
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ramack
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Joined: 1 May 2007
Posts: 10
Location: Centennial, CO
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sun Jan 24, 2010, 11:24am
Subject: Re: absence of surface oils
 

IMAWriter Said:

Kirkland is Costco's "House" label. Their Kirkland labeled products are uniformly excellent, and usually manufactured  for Costco by the "name brand" folks.

Posted January 23, 2010 link

Ok, I didn't realize that Kirkland was the "house" label.  I thought that I had also seen Kirkland sold at Sam's too.  The Sumatra whole bean coffee that Costco sold that I really like was in a bright red bag.  I only saw it for 6 months or so in Memphis and Sacramento.  I haven't seen it since.

IMAWriter Said:

I'm not quite sure what you mean by by "showing signs of 2nd crack.

Posted January 23, 2010 link

Visible indication of the 2C.  "Divots" or an area about 2-3mm in diameter missing from the bean.

What do you roast with?

What's a typical roast profile for you?  IE, total roast time, when the 1C and 2C occur.

Last fall I moved back to the Denver area from N. Mississippi and have found a couple of "smaller" local roasters.  I would like to spend some time with them as to how they roast, etc.
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