Posted Fri Oct 27, 2006, 9:02am Subject: Re: Argh! Just got my KitchenAid Proline -- Dang!
I have had mine for a week or so now....the first time I took apart to clean I was totally amazed at the amount of grinds packed into all sorts of places I would not have imagined. Maybe it really has no effect...but I have just had all this talk of "fresh coffee...fresh grind....grind just before brewing...drilled into my head. And I actually believe I can now taste some of these factors....so I don't want to backtrack and have a grinder that is dumping grinds that are old into my fresh stuff ! What a shame such a nicely built machine is so poorly engineered. Back to Williams Sonoma it is going. Had a Virtuoso since Feb. Grind started shifting on me...took apart to re-calibrate....the ring supporting lower burr had split where little screw was screwed in..... My replacement Virtuoso showed up the other day....HOLY COW...the thing should ship with a ground cable ! For what ever reason...static problem is much worse than my original....good news is I suppose the grind seemed more even....more range in the fine end (altough I don't use the fine grind range any way). I do know I want a METAL grinder....no more plastic housings and burr carriers and such.
I guess I'm destined to follow in the footsteps of many Coffee-Geeks before me....looks like a Rocky is in my future.
I should have heeded the warnings....just hard-headed as my Momma always said !
When you take the front burr assembly off and examine the situation, is there no accumulation of grind, as in my photo? How does the design of the tabs on the front burr mounting plate differ from the one in the photo I posted?
Any information about design differences would be most appreciated!
alsterling Senior Member Joined: 28 Dec 2005 Posts: 682 Location: Dana Point, CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: La Spaziale S1 (Had Expo) Grinder: Macap M4 & Gaggia MDF Vac Pot: Not yet... Drip: Capresso MT-500 & Melitta... Roaster: Hottop Digital
Posted Fri Oct 27, 2006, 10:14pm Subject: KitchenAid Proline not in any espresso cafe...
I'm an outsider on this KitchenAid grinder, other than spying one nearly a year ago at a Williams Sonoma store when I was trying to get up to speed and into the hobby.......so here's my question to this select group of KitchenAid warriors;
With grinders used in espresso operations that are also available for the home, Mazzer and Macap to be specific, why did you guys settle on this grinder? Was it MONEY or DESIGN or what?
I respect the fact that we all have different financial priorities and preferences, but with this hobby, I now believe that there are few shortcuts to consistent and controlable extractions. I spent a little under $400 for my Macap M4, stepless doser. Granted, if you got your grinder for $150, then I'd understand that an extra $250 could be substantial. However, given the critical link in the chain that our grinders represent, do you think that if you knew then what you know now you would have still purchased your KitchenAid?
I started with a Cuisinart from Costco, so I'm noone to talk. That was at the beginning. But as soon as I discovered it couldn't grind fine enough, I got a Gaggia MDF for $195. I also thought, when I first got the MDF, that it was a great value......AND, I thought it was reasonably quiet! I just didn't have enough experience to make a fair comparison. So, when I sold the Expobar machine and got my third machine, I got the Macap. Again, I don't mean to say that you "must" upgrade, as the machine obviously does work, but with all the unique issues to this design, ............... well, again, why?
Posted Sat Oct 28, 2006, 8:36am Subject: Re: KitchenAid Proline not in any espresso cafe...
alsterling Said:
I'm an outsider on this KitchenAid grinder, other than spying one nearly a year ago at a Williams Sonoma store when I was trying to get up to speed and into the hobby.......so here's my question to this select group of KitchenAid warriors;
With grinders used in espresso operations that are also available for the home, Mazzer and Macap to be specific, why did you guys settle on this grinder? Was it MONEY or DESIGN or what?
I respect the fact that we all have different financial priorities and preferences, but with this hobby, I now believe that there are few shortcuts to consistent and controlable extractions. I spent a little under $400 for my Macap M4, stepless doser. Granted, if you got your grinder for $150, then I'd understand that an extra $250 could be substantial. However, given the critical link in the chain that our grinders represent, do you think that if you knew then what you know now you would have still purchased your KitchenAid?
I started with a Cuisinart from Costco, so I'm noone to talk. That was at the beginning. But as soon as I discovered it couldn't grind fine enough, I got a Gaggia MDF for $195. I also thought, when I first got the MDF, that it was a great value......AND, I thought it was reasonably quiet! I just didn't have enough experience to make a fair comparison. So, when I sold the Expobar machine and got my third machine, I got the Macap. Again, I don't mean to say that you "must" upgrade, as the machine obviously does work, but with all the unique issues to this design, ............... well, again, why?
Hi Al, There is a key difference between you and I that may shed some light on the question. You make espresso while I don't nor do I intend to. So our needs in a grinder are going to be very different. I absolutely don't want a doser, for me it would just be a source of irritation. A worm-driven stepless adjustment maybe wonderful for those striving for a god shot but it would be a royal pain in the neck for me; I absolutely don't want it. Being able to change grinds easily is important to me, being able to dial in the grind to the exact second or fraction of second, not so important.
Money. There's the 800 lb gorrilla that refuses to leave the room. Money makes us back off a bit and look at coffee in terms of other expenses and burdens we have to deal with. I agree, get the best grinder you can afford, but we each have to make our own, often agonizing, judgement of what we can afford. Here the law of diminishing returns kicks in. My KA cost almost twice as much as the grinder I had before. Was it worth it? I believe it was due to improved taste and usabilty. Now a Rocky would have cost me at least $90 more. I see two advantages to the Rocky: quality of grind and possibly superior durabilty. That hinges on several guestions. How dear is that $90? Remember for me and most people every dollar put in to a grinder is a dollar taken from something else. Will I notice the difference in the cup? That may vary according to palate. My judgement after waying the factors was that the Rocky would not be worth that much more for me.
As for issues, is there a grinder out there that doesn't have issues? Yes the beans do get caught between the hopper and the edge of the finger guard but it's no big deal to me to just flick the beans in to the grinder. What annoys me most is that it is such an insanely unnessesary problem. If they would just make the guard a tad shorter the problem would be solved. Same thing with beans being held up by the flat services under the finger guard. Not that big a deal but how much would putting a bigger slope in them cost? There is residue build-up in the housing but in my grinder it is comprised of grinds that have some how been pushed outside of the path of the grinds going in to the receptacle. Very little (a small fraction of a gram) comes out in the next grind. I've checked this out by grinding rice after over a week of grinding since the last cleaning.
So to answer your question (finally) , yes I would buy it again in a heart beat. I feel I got a lot of bang for my buck, both the grind quality and user experience is excellent. I'm not saying I'll never ever get hit with upgraditis sometime in the future when I'm feeling flush but I don't see that day coming soon.
this is one of the reasons why i went with the KA.
i didnt have a fair comparison to really know that my investment was worth it.
i didnt have the skills to make, or the palate tranining, to give a fair comparison of taste either.
i didnt have the cash to drop on a verslab or rocky or mazzer.
i wanted something doserless and stepless. something returnable if needed.
ease of use is a big thing for me. (mac user here) so usablity is key. i didnt want to need to brush out grinds to make them all come out. didnt want to modify a doser, etc. it seems that if the grinder has a mazzer logo the user tends to not mind doing modifications or tricks to get the grinder to "be more usable" (remove hopper, put tamper on the beans to keep from jumping out during grind, etc) in the home environment. a cheap grinder it just gets given up on for some reason. most just give up and dont give it a fair chance "oh it doesnt works it just sucks" . a dif story on a mazzer or rocky. "ooh its a rocky or mazzer, its not working ideal for me, it doesnt suck, it just needs mods" im not sure if im making sense here. but mainly i wanted to decide for myself. i have had lots of poor shots from mazzers at coffee shops all over. so i tended to think yeah the grinder is important but one can still make bad coffee with a nice grinder, maybe you can make good coffee with greater attention to technique using a cheaper grinder. this route will teach me to get good coffee from cheap grinder.
Later when i can afford and more importantly APPRECIATE why the versalab is better then i will truly have an understanding of why. also my skill set will untimatley be stronger by my chosen learning curve.
put simply in a driving analogy "if your first car is a ferrari, then you will have an unfair biased judgement on a pinto" "if your first car is a pinto and you learn to drive it well and how to work with its limitations, you later acquire a ferrari and have a greater understanding and appreciation for its qualities and price"
i guess i went with the KA to help me truly appreciate the more expensive grinder i have not purchased yet.
BTW i can get some really nice tasting shots from this grinder. it can be used sucessfully for espresso, YYMV.
Posted Sat Oct 28, 2006, 9:52am Subject: Re: KitchenAid Proline not in any espresso cafe...
CoffeeToolsAppJon Said:
put simply in a driving analogy "if your first car is a ferrari, then you will have an unfair biased judgement on a pinto" "if your first car is a pinto and you learn to drive it well and how to work with its limitations, you later acquire a ferrari and have a greater understanding and appreciation for its qualities and price"
i guess i went with the KA to help me truly appreciate the more expensive grinder i have not purchased yet.
Assuming of course you don't get rear ended and the pinto doesn't explode. Sorry, I couldn't resist. Snotty quips aside, you make a good point. There is much to be said for getting a less expensive grinder while you learn the ropes and also get to know your own preferences and concerns.
Also there is another benefit to climbing the grinder ladder one step at a time. When I got my first inexpensive grinder I was thrilled, my coffee was so much better, a wonderful experience. Samething with my Proline even more so since the proline was much more pleasant to use. If down the road I get a Rocky it will be yet another euphoric experience. This could continue till I get a second morgage to buy one of these.
Eh, maybe I should stop before I reach that point.
alsterling Senior Member Joined: 28 Dec 2005 Posts: 682 Location: Dana Point, CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: La Spaziale S1 (Had Expo) Grinder: Macap M4 & Gaggia MDF Vac Pot: Not yet... Drip: Capresso MT-500 & Melitta... Roaster: Hottop Digital
Posted Sat Oct 28, 2006, 5:15pm Subject: Re: Removed KitchenAid Proline Grinder Finger Guard with Hack Saw (pics inside)
Well, thanks for the explanation on reasons for purchasing the KA grinder. I was confused by prices I remembered at WSonoma for the grinder that hovered around $500? That's why I couldn't figure out the KA over a doserless Macap or Mazzer. Now I get it. I also had momentary tunnel vision and forgot that some don't venture into the "espresso zone" for grinding, although I see that the KA evidently will go that fine.
Having experimented through 4 espresso machines and 3 grinders just in this last year, I fully understand the value of moving from basic to, well, "mo-betta", or at least "mo-spensive!"
I've got to say though, this thread comes across more as a "cult group" than an owner's round table! Especially when it starts with one of the owners explaining how he "amputated" body parts off his machine........... (this wouldn't be a special "Halloween Post", would it?)
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