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Santoker 500/Revolution 500 Roaster -VS- new Sonofresco ADR profile sample roast
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Discussions > Coffee > Home Roast > Santoker...  
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boar_d_laze
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Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,482
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Mon Mar 17, 2014, 3:59pm
Subject: Re: Santoker 500/Revolution 500 Roaster -VS- new Sonofresco ADR
 

kboom1 Said:

In the end I decided to order a USRC sample roaster and with any luck should have it mid April. I was on the wait list for a Santoker but due to a lack of comunication and issues others were having with their Santokers I decided on the USRC.

Posted March 17, 2014 link

Now the waiting begins.  

Let me know if there's anything I can do to help.  

USRC doesn't ship a regulator or hose with the roaster.  I suggest getting a commercial quality regulator like a Fisher (Dean at USRC will know you the model number, Roger won't), instead of a turkey-fryer quality regulator like a Bayou, because wotthehell wotthehell you've already spent so much on the roaster you might as well get a real deal regulator and I don't want to be the only person who over-bought.  

The next time you talk to the guys and gals at USRC tell them "hi" from me.  And...

Welcome to the club,
Rich
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kboom1
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kboom1
Joined: 31 Aug 2009
Posts: 310
Location: Northeastern Pennsylvania
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Alex2HX,Alex Duetto,Rancilio...
Grinder: Rancilio Rocky,Vario
Roaster: Behmor x2 / USRC Sample...
Posted Mon Mar 17, 2014, 4:28pm
Subject: Re: Santoker 500/Revolution 500 Roaster -VS- new Sonofresco ADR
 

Thanks Rich. I thought about the regulator & hose when I saw it listed on their options list so I had them throw one in. I figured might as well get the one they install them with to make sure everything is correct. 1 week down and counting, the waiting is the worst. I'm sure as soon as I get it I will be geting in touch with you for some set up help :)
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boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,482
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Mon Mar 17, 2014, 5:44pm
Subject: Re: Santoker 500/Revolution 500 Roaster -VS- new Sonofresco ADR
 

kboom1 Said:

I thought about the regulator & hose when I saw it listed on their options list so I had them throw one in.

Posted March 17, 2014 link

They either didn't have an "options list," or I overlooked it. Instead, I asked Roger and the rest is history. The wrong regulator cost me 20 bucks and the first weekend. Dammit!" for me, and "So cool!" for you.  

About 100lbs in it doesn't bother me anymore.  

Rich
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kboom1
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kboom1
Joined: 31 Aug 2009
Posts: 310
Location: Northeastern Pennsylvania
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Alex2HX,Alex Duetto,Rancilio...
Grinder: Rancilio Rocky,Vario
Roaster: Behmor x2 / USRC Sample...
Posted Tue Mar 18, 2014, 3:47am
Subject: Re: Santoker 500/Revolution 500 Roaster -VS- new Sonofresco ADR
 

Incase anyone is interested in the factory listed options, here is their options sheet. Dan told me if I wanted a 2 tone paint job he would include it for fee but I decided on metal flake black. One option I wasnt sure on is the:
Environmental air temperature with digital read-out instead of Probe. would this be for MET ?

kboom1: usrc3.png
(Click for larger image)
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boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,482
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Tue Mar 18, 2014, 5:43am
Subject: Re: Santoker 500/Revolution 500 Roaster -VS- new Sonofresco ADR
 

kboom1 Said:

Environmental air temperature with digital read-out instead of Probe. would this be for MET ?

Posted March 18, 2014 link

No.  

At a guess, the option means that instead of the analog thermometer mounted in and on the bean chute/exhaust manifold; USRC would mount a digital readout.  But you should check with Dan -- or better yet, with Dean or Paul.  Don't ask Roger.  Or if you do, don't rely on the answer.  Seriously.

Also, if you've ordered the USB option in the belief that you could use it with Artisan (or Typica, Roast Logger, or something similar) check with USRC to make sure that it supports real time software readout.  The old fashioned method was to "data log" results to a spread sheet like Excel for review after the roast.  

You want the new real time thing, not the old.  As far as I know, mine was the first roaster which USRC set up to do it; and it involved two extra probes and an external, third party USB data logger.  The probes, very standard "K" thermocouples with pigtailed leads, they sourced through Omega.  

The data logger was also an Omega; and HH806AU.  But be aware that you have some options which will function just as well as the HH806AU I selected and which USRC is still pushing (last I heard) because it's all they probably know.  An Amprobe TMD 56 will do the same things the Omega does for about half the price, but it isn't built or supported quite as well.  While a Phidget is both more elegant and less expensive, but not as versatile in the sense that it's really just a TC to USB converter and not a stand alone data logger/thermometer.  

As far as USRC is concerned, real time plotting is a brave new world and none of them knows very much about it. I introduced Paul to it.  Paul is an active, artisanal roaster, and immediately understood how and why it's important.  Paul knows more than Dean.  As of a month or so ago, Dean knew more than Dan, who's also a very competent roaster but very old fashioned.  Unless things have changed, Roger doesn't know anything at all about any electronic or software stuff.  Make sure you confirm any design options with Dan, Paul or Dean -- don't rely on Roger to get it right.      

"MET" is a very confusing term which means something specific in the world of Quest and similar roasters but something else in the more general world.  The first meaning is more common in amateur roasting forums like this one, H-B and HRO; and the second one with professionals.  

What you say "MET" you're probably thinking of the Quest meaning, and it refers to a probe placement between the drum and the roaster shell; not only outside the drum, but outside the drum airflow as well.  It's especially useful with roasters which don't allow good in-drum or in-exhaust thermocouple placement.  It doesn't apply to this situation.  

USRC ET probe placement is just outside the drum but squarely in the airflow.  With the USRC probe locations, higher airflow will cause measurement from the probe placed in the ET location to drop relative to the probe placed in the BT location -- even with an empty drum.  

(Note:  You control airflow through the drum not only with fan speed but with damper position as well; and using both along with flame, gives you a lot of options in terms of what's happening with the beans.)

Sorry for the massive "data dump," and the length of the post.  You've probably got all the options covered, but better safe than sorry.  

Rich
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kboom1
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kboom1
Joined: 31 Aug 2009
Posts: 310
Location: Northeastern Pennsylvania
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Alex2HX,Alex Duetto,Rancilio...
Grinder: Rancilio Rocky,Vario
Roaster: Behmor x2 / USRC Sample...
Posted Tue Mar 18, 2014, 6:13am
Subject: Re: Santoker 500/Revolution 500 Roaster -VS- new Sonofresco ADR
 

I requested to have "K" thermocouples installed but didn't order my data logger yet. probably going to go with the HH806AU. USRC still seems a bit sceptical and knows little about real time logging .  Dan from USRC stated they recently had 3 other orders that decided to be set up for real time logging  instead of using the in house  USB one they offer. Dan said they would install the k type thermocouples for ET/BT and run the wires in to the control cabinet and then install the plug in on the front of the roaster for me but could not guarantee the performance of the outsourced logger.

Quoted from Dan:
The one we offer in house is very simple and a USB thumb drive plugs into it that you can later down load into your computer as a text file, it works with apple and Mac.
WE have used it for years and can stand behind it as it is part of what we sell. It does not have live feedback, so you cannot see the data until the thumb drive is removed and down loaded into your computer.
The Roaster is all our Baby and it will be good!
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germantownrob
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germantownrob
Joined: 2 Dec 2007
Posts: 2,156
Location: Philadelphia
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar
Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,...
Drip: Brazen
Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Tue Mar 18, 2014, 6:39am
Subject: Re: Santoker 500/Revolution 500 Roaster -VS- new Sonofresco ADR
 

Congratulations on your roaster! The wait is very hard and was a roller coaster ride for me.

I was lucky in my timing buying the Diedrich IR-1, I got roaster #008 and it was only $400 more then the USRC 1lb machine so it was a no brainer choice. USRC was at the top of the list for me and if they made a 1kg machine I probably would have gone for it. Diedrich since has made the IR-1 untouchable cost wise and when they finally made the real time data logging available for the IR-1 we where talking a price for close to what I paid for the roaster. USRC's 1lb roaster has been around for awhile and the company welcomes crazy home roasters to buy their machine.

So they are not 100% behind real time data logging! neither am I to be honest. Not saying I don't want it one day but what I love so much about roasting is responding to the beans, kinda like vinyl vs CD to me.
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boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,482
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Tue Mar 18, 2014, 7:29am
Subject: Re: Santoker 500/Revolution 500 Roaster -VS- new Sonofresco ADR
 

kboom1 Said:

I requested to have "K" thermocouples installed but didn't order my data logger yet. probably going to go with the HH806AU.

Posted March 18, 2014 link

It's a really good data logger.  Don't forget to order the carrying case, and the AC adapter which are extra.  I think that the Windows software comes standard but you might want to call Omega and check.

You can order the data logger from Omega directly but USRC might want to do it for you so they can test the system that you'll eventually be using.  A secondary benefit of ordering through USRC is that you might save a few bucks on sales tax.  

USRC still seems a bit sceptical and knows little about real time logging.

Dan is, anyway.

Dan from USRC stated they recently had 3 other orders that decided to be set up for real time logging  instead of using the in house  USB one they offer.

Yes.  They all wrote to me before ordering.  

Dan said they would install the k type thermocouples for ET/BT and run the wires in to the control cabinet and then install the plug in on the front of the roaster for me but could not guarantee the performance of the outsourced logger.

Not a big worry.  If worse comes to worse and the Omega dies, you can replace it with an Amprobe or a Phidget -- each of which costs around $100.

(From Dan Joliff of USRC) The one we offer in house is very simple and a USB thumb drive plugs into it that you can later down load into your computer as a text file, it works with apple and Mac. WE have used it for years and can stand behind it as it is part of what we sell. It does not have live feedback, so you cannot see the data until the thumb drive is removed and down loaded into your computer.

As I said, Dan is very old fashioned. He's a sounds, smells, sights, by guess and by gosh sort of roast master; and there's nothing wrong with that.  But time marches on.  

So they are not 100% behind real time data logging! neither am I to be honest. Not saying I don't want it one day but what I love so much about roasting is responding to the beans, kinda like vinyl vs CD to me.

Real time temp read out including delta T, ET and BT plotting, logging, etc., etc., doesn't take away or otherwise affect your ability to experience, interpret or act on the physical sensations of roasting.  

On the other hand, it adds a level of sophistication to them by giving you a sufficiently precise measure to anticipate them.  Increasing air and cutting back on heat ~30sec (10F) before 1stCs is a different profile than waiting for 1stCs itself to make the changes.  Another benefit of anticipating a milestone is the opportunity to ramp changes rather than making them all at once.  

Furthermore, real time BT allows you to assign arbitrary points for action.  For instance, I begin the air and energy increase for the Ramp interval at 300F, rather than at the particular smells (baking bread + rum) or sights (yellow with wrinkles on the flat face) which come at what's approximately the same stage of development.  
  1. Why the temp rather than the smells or sights?  
  2. Because it's more convenient and hitting certain sight/smell milestones precisely rather than a temperature which is at least very close doesn't make a difference in the coffee.  

  3. Why real time plotting software instead of just looking at the BT display?  
  4. Why not?  It's the same, real time information after all.  

There are some issues, but they're more psychological than technical or artisanal.  The information can be very distracting especially the first dozen or so times you use it.  And, to some extent, it invites a recipe following / paint by the numbers approach if you're not confident enough to create and tweak your own profiles.  We can agree that artisanal roasting is all about doing things on purpose rather than being dragged along by the equipment, the beans, or another person's idea of how a bean should be roasted.

As long as real time plotting and calculation isn't an "instead of," but a "with," it's a valuable tool for a competent roast master.  It's allowed me scope and control I didn't have without it; and given what I know about you, I expect it will be at least as valuable to you.  

Rich
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kboom1
Senior Member
kboom1
Joined: 31 Aug 2009
Posts: 310
Location: Northeastern Pennsylvania
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Alex2HX,Alex Duetto,Rancilio...
Grinder: Rancilio Rocky,Vario
Roaster: Behmor x2 / USRC Sample...
Posted Tue Mar 18, 2014, 7:54am
Subject: Re: Santoker 500/Revolution 500 Roaster -VS- new Sonofresco ADR
 

germantownrob Said:

Congratulations on your roaster! The wait is very hard and was a roller coaster ride for me.

I was lucky in my timing buying the Diedrich IR-1, I got roaster #008 and it was only $400 more then the USRC 1lb machine so it was a no brainer choice. USRC was at the top of the list for me and if they made a 1kg machine I probably would have gone for it. Diedrich since has made the IR-1 untouchable cost wise and when they finally made the real time data logging available for the IR-1 we where talking a price for close to what I paid for the roaster. USRC's 1lb roaster has been around for awhile and the company welcomes crazy home roasters to buy their machine.

So they are not 100% behind real time data logging! neither am I to be honest. Not saying I don't want it one day but what I love so much about roasting is responding to the beans, kinda like vinyl vs CD to me.

Posted March 18, 2014 link


Thanks Rob. The wait is killing me, I just mentioned to the wife I had to roast tonight, she said why do you look so bummed out, hence new roaster waiting and still having to use my meager old equipment.

I didn't even check out Diedrich's or SF's prices this time around. The last time I called Diedrich (about a year or so ago) and from their replies it souded like they did not want to deal with home roasters. But in their defence I'm sure they get a lot of price request from home roasters that didn't follow though with a purchase. My experence with USRC so far has been nothing but a plesent experience. Every question and email answered without hesitation. The only other American roaster I did check the price on was a 2k Ambex $8,900 with incuded logging software.
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kboom1
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kboom1
Joined: 31 Aug 2009
Posts: 310
Location: Northeastern Pennsylvania
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Alex2HX,Alex Duetto,Rancilio...
Grinder: Rancilio Rocky,Vario
Roaster: Behmor x2 / USRC Sample...
Posted Tue Mar 18, 2014, 8:19am
Subject: Re: Santoker 500/Revolution 500 Roaster -VS- new Sonofresco ADR
 

I've always roasted by sight ,smell, sound, time ect. having  the realtime logging added is more of a future proofing my machinery. I'm sure using realtime logging I will have quite a few pooched roast at first until I learn how not to over/under adjust to control my curve.
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