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How far into second crack, if at all?
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Burner0000
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Posted Thu Jan 23, 2014, 11:26am
Subject: Re: How far into second crack, if at all?
 

I am personally able to "tame" acidics in Full City - Vienna roasts.  Full City being right before or at the first sound of second crack. Vienna roughly 30 seconds into second crack.
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scottfsmith
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Posted Mon Feb 3, 2014, 7:35am
Subject: Re: How far into second crack, if at all?
 

Frost Said:

I clock 'finish time', from start of first crack until roast end. This for my espresso roast is mostly between 3 and 4 minutes.  Go longer if too tart, shorter if too flat.

Posted January 17, 2014 link

This is the key on whatever kind of roaster you are using - if you want to stay out of 2nd crack and avoid sour roasts, you need to get the ET down as you hit 1st so there is enough roast time to tone down the acidity without running into 2nd crack.  I don't time it like Frost does since I have more reliable data in the form of bean and external thermoprobes.  I have target BT-ET numbers posted by the roaster that I try to line up.  For example, at around 400F BT I want ET a bit below 600F; if its too high compared to that I vent my grill.  This is on an RK drum.  I used to time roasts but different beans behave differently in terms of cracking and I find the BT-ET method is more consistent.  I do change the profile a bit for different beans, the dry processed beans need even more pullback on ET at the end or they will sprint to 2nd crack.

Scott
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Frost
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Posted Mon Feb 3, 2014, 10:50am
Subject: Re: How far into second crack, if at all?
 

scottfsmith Said:

This is the key on whatever kind of roaster you are using - if you want to stay out of 2nd crack and avoid sour roasts, you need to get the ET down as you hit 1st so there is enough roast time to tone down the acidity without running into 2nd crack.  I don't time it like Frost does since I have more reliable data in the form of bean and external thermoprobes.  I have target BT-ET numbers posted by the roaster that I try to line up.  For example, at around 400F BT I want ET a bit below 600F; if its too high compared to that I vent my grill.  This is on an RK drum.  I used to time roasts but different beans behave differently in terms of cracking and I find the BT-ET method is more consistent.  I do change the profile a bit for different beans, the dry processed beans need even more pullback on ET at the end or they will sprint to 2nd crack.

Scott

Posted February 3, 2014 link

Controlling temperature is exactly how I pace the roast timing. I have an ET probe measuring the heated air just before it meets the beans (this is regulated with a Variac), and a probe in the bean mass. It is the relationship of ET to BT that determines the rate of rise during ramp, the drying time, and how long and far the finish. Get your ET right and the beans will follow.
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boar_d_laze
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Posted Tue Feb 4, 2014, 4:23pm
Subject: Re: How far into second crack, if at all?
 

Frost Said:

It is the relationship of ET to BT that determines the rate of rise during ramp, the drying time, and how long and far the finish. Get your ET right and the beans will follow.

Posted February 3, 2014 link

In an air roaster, yes.  

In a pro-style drum, which relies more on contact for heat-energy transference than on radiance or convection, it's fairly far down the list.  How far, depends on the roaster itself and the (cough) roast-master's style.  

Roasting is very equipment and style dependent.  There are few, universal, right answers.  

BDL
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Frost
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Posted Tue Feb 4, 2014, 5:01pm
Subject: Re: How far into second crack, if at all?
 

boar_d_laze Said:

In an air roaster, yes.  

In a pro-style drum, which relies more on contact for heat-energy transference than on radiance or convection, it's fairly far down the list.  How far, depends on the roaster itself and the (cough) roast-master's style.  

Roasting is very equipment and style dependent.  There are few, universal, right answers.  

BDL

Posted February 4, 2014 link

Check your 'facts' BDL; In the modern 'pro-style drum' it is convection, not conduction, that is the primary heat transfer mechanism by a good margin.

Regardless of roaster type, Environment Temperature serves as a proxy for the heat that is available to impart to the bean mass from the roaster. Good probe placement is important and roaster type has a significant influence over the actual numbers. (Scott's 600F on the outside of the RK drum would incinerate the beans on my air roaster; not only different roasters, but different 'ET' probe placement).
The relationship of ET to BT, together with the heat transfer efficiency of the roaster has everything to do with profiling the roast.

How far and how fast? Certainly up to the (let's hope) 'roast master', but it is controlled by throttling heat(ET) and (if the roaster is so equipped), air flow.
Bless you.
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rmongiovi
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Posted Tue Feb 4, 2014, 6:53pm
Subject: Re: How far into second crack, if at all?
 

So what defines "good probe placement" if it matters that much?  Clearly BT has to be in the bean mass, but ET?  Different placement makes for different temperature, but what make one "better" than the other?  And what's the definition of better?
Roy
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boar_d_laze
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Posted Tue Feb 4, 2014, 7:22pm
Subject: Re: How far into second crack, if at all?
 

Frost Said:

Check your 'facts' BDL

Posted February 4, 2014 link

Sure.   Have a source for me?  Or, can I go by my own years of experience with drum roasters; USRC, who built my roaster; Mike Perry (Klatch), who taught me, Willem Boot, etc., etc, etc.  

In the modern 'pro-style drum' it is convection, not conduction, that is the primary heat transfer mechanism by a good margin.

Not according to Tom Owens of Sweet Maria, who writing about small electric home roasters said: The larger home coffee roasting machines like the the Behmor, (and) HotTop... are drum (i.e. conduction) machines and give a slower roast along the lines of ... commercial drum roasts.... Each of these machines allows great control over the time, temperature and roasting profile than the air roasters; generally the more expensive the machine, the more control (Emphases mine).  Truer still when applied to the "commercial drum roasters," themselves.

Also, it might be helpful if you supplied an example of the sort of "modern 'pro style drum'" to which you refer.  The fact is drum roasters -- with the exception of "hybrids" like the Gene -- heat the drum primarily, and the air-stream incidentally.  

Regardless of roaster type, Environment Temperature serves as a proxy for the heat that is available to impart to the bean mass from the roaster.

What do you mean by "proxy?"  Air temperature inside the drum (i.e., ET) doesn't necessarily track the temperature of the drum itself, in fact sometimes they move in the opposite direction.

 Good probe placement is important and roaster type has a significant influence over the actual numbers.

Yes.  

(Scott's 600F on the outside of the RK drum would incinerate the beans on my air roaster; not only different roasters, but different 'ET' probe placement).

Sott's 600F probably isn't accurate; but as long as the reading is reproducible with his equipment, and supplies the information needed to act appropriately, accuracy isn't terribly important.    

The relationship of ET to BT, together with the heat transfer efficiency of the roaster has everything to do with profiling the roast.

The term heat transfer efficiency of the roaster is unfamiliar in this context.  I don't understand what you're driving at.  A good roast master (and I as well) can use independent settings of the gas, fan and damper (if the roaster is so equipped) to control the relationship of ET to BT.   I try to keep ET ahead of BT during the drying process, and let BT overtake and pass ET during Ramp and Development.  

I'm not really sure what you meant, so will refrain from commenting further.

How far and how fast? Certainly up to the (let's hope) 'roast master', but it is controlled by throttling heat(ET) and (if the roaster is so equipped), air flow.

I've never heard ET referred to as throttling heat?  Is there another example?  Whatever you mean by the term, I suspect you're mistaken.  In a professional type, massive, gas fired, drum roaster -- even one as small as mine -- the drum itself, and not the air within it, is usually (but not always) the primary source of heat energy transferred from roaster to drum.  

BDL
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hankua
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hankua
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Posted Tue Feb 4, 2014, 7:34pm
Subject: Re: How far into second crack, if at all?
 

Agree with Frost, heat control on the Giesen roaster is connected to ET thermocouple. It makes sense when you think about how the roaster reacts to a large or small difference between BT and ET. Giesen burners have proportional or adjustable valves, cheaper machines are on/ off. Now I've only seen the sales videos not the real thing.

Another thing to consider is roasting using sensory landmarks. How long to bread stage/drying? The "A" point Boot Roasting talks about happens just before 1C; I get it sometimes but on every bean. That's a good point to adjust heat if necessary.
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Frost
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Frost
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Posted Tue Feb 4, 2014, 8:19pm
Subject: Re: How far into second crack, if at all?
 

rmongiovi Said:

So what defines "good probe placement" if it matters that much?  Clearly BT has to be in the bean mass, but ET?  Different placement makes for different temperature, but what make one "better" than the other?  And what's the definition of better?
Roy

Posted February 4, 2014 link

The ideal ET probe placement is one that accurately reflects the temperature of the air the bean mass is immersed in or tumbling through. There will be a temperature gradient across the roaster from the heater element or burner itself to the bean mass. Something like the Hottop has significant temperature gradients in the roast chamber as the fan does not assist much in convecting heat through the roaster.
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Frost
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Frost
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Posted Tue Feb 4, 2014, 8:27pm
Subject: Re: How far into second crack, if at all?
 

boar_d_laze Said:

Sure.   Have a source for me?

Posted February 4, 2014 link

3 min google search:  

Click Here (probatburns.com)

"Only about 85% convection in solid drum roasters...."

I did research many years ago and the old  links are now dead.

edit; really though it is a common often repeated misconception about drum roasters.
Also the Behmor is a unique case as it uses a radiant element; I have no idea where it operates.
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