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yet another behmor 1600 question...
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JKalpin
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JKalpin
Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 805
Location: Thornhill, Ontario Canada
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Aerobie Aeropress
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Roaster: Freshroast+8, Behmor 1600
Posted Tue Nov 19, 2013, 8:22pm
Subject: Re: yet another behmor 1600 question...
 

Hidden away in the Behmor manual there is the 'Rosetta Stone Rule' as they call it, in which you predict the onset of the 2CR by counting the time from the first crack or two of the 1CR.

This afternoon I did the 2nd and 3rd roasts of a very nice Guatemala.  I was aiming at Full City, just at the edge of the 2CR and stopped the roast at 2:40 min.  Fifteen seconds after I went to 'cool' I got a few reluctant crackles of the 2CR.  The colour was dark brown with no oil sheen, …just where I wanted it.  

Without any temperature measurement and special profiles, it is possible to get very fine roasts, repeatably, time after time.  For that Guat, 2:40 min. will give it to me.  However, the first roast of a new bean might be a bit too light or a bit too dark …something to be corrected next time.

I have completed 200 roasts and have never thrown one out.

 
Jerry
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boar_d_laze
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Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,335
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
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Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Wed Nov 20, 2013, 9:44am
Subject: Re: yet another behmor 1600 question...
 

JKalpin Said:

Hidden away in the Behmor manual there is the 'Rosetta Stone Rule' as they call it, in which you predict the onset of the 2CR by counting the time from the first crack or two of the 1CR.

Posted November 19, 2013 link

 It's a little easier and somewhat more accurate to use a BT probe, or even an ET probe, than just counting from 1st C; but timing from sounds and smells has worked for a lot of people for a long time.  

That said, most roasters use "end of 1st" rather than onset of "1st" as the milestone on the way to drop, because it's a more accurate and more immediate measure.  Also, 2:40 from onset of 1st to drop is a rather short interval for any drum roaster.  Most modern roasters want 3 minutes or more from end if 1st to drop to enhance sweetness and to allow the interior of the bean to fully develop.

This afternoon I did the 2nd and 3rd roasts of a very nice Guatemala.  I was aiming at Full City, just at the edge of the 2CR and stopped the roast at 2:40 min.  Fifteen seconds after I went to 'cool' I got a few reluctant crackles of the 2CR.  The colour was dark brown with no oil sheen, …just where I wanted it.

Thumbs up!

Without any temperature measurement and special profiles, it is possible to get very fine roasts, repeatably, time after time.  For that Guat, 2:40 min. will give it to me.

It's more than possible to get consistently decent roasts without temperature measurements, home roasters have been using very simple equipment forever.  However, it's almost impossible to get much in the way of consistent profiles; especially those profiles which you design for yourself for a particular bean, as opposed to profiles programmed into the machine -- "P1" for instance.

Some people are more "artisanal," while others are more "set it and forget it."  There's no one way best for everyone.  And, let me hasten to mention, just because I fall on the artisan side of the fence don't take "set it and forget it," as a dig.  Good coffee is good coffee, no matter how it's done.

However, the first roast of a new bean might be a bit too light or a bit too dark …something to be corrected next time.

Happens to everyone.  Even those who roast "samples," before roasting larger charges.  Making mistakes is an the essential part of learning.

I have completed 200 roasts and have never thrown one out.

OK, but I'm not sure whether that's a point of pride.  

BDL
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Frost
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Frost
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Posted Wed Nov 20, 2013, 2:16pm
Subject: Re: yet another behmor 1600 question...
 

boar_d_laze Said:

......, most roasters use "end of 1st" rather than onset of "1st" as the milestone on the way to drop, because it's a more accurate and more immediate measure.  Also, 2:40 from onset of 1st to drop is a rather short interval for any drum roaster. .......

Posted November 20, 2013 link

Every reference I have used marks the beginning of first crack as the beginning of the 'finish' period. The duration of first crack is a measure of finish pace and/or bean uniformity and/or heat uniformity.  The 3 minute minimum finish is a good rule of thumb, somewhat longer for espresso. how does the Behmor get away with shorter? Maybe more time leading into first crack and run on during the cooling.
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OregonCityMan
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Posted Wed Nov 20, 2013, 5:33pm
Subject: Re: yet another behmor 1600 question...
 

I have been reading this thread as I think the Behmor 1600 is probably the most cost effective, yet capable roaster I have seen on the market. The HT and Huky are very nice, but the Huky is so cool I just love to watch the demonstration videos. The thing about the HT and Huky is they allow for external cooling. That is so important to stop the roast on a dime.

I own two roasters, one of which I designed (copied) last year. It is an outdoor full conduction Stainless Steel 1/2 pound roaster. I like the way I can control almost every aspect of the roast, and when my roast is done, I spin the lid off and cool the beans instantly. The camp stove is a Coleman, and the only time I have issues with it is in the wind.

boar_d_laze: Since you live in So California, do you do any business with Bodhi Leaf coffee?
Any opinion is appreciated.

OregonCityMan: DSC03183.JPG
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boar_d_laze
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Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
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Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Thu Nov 21, 2013, 8:57am
Subject: Re: yet another behmor 1600 question...
 

Frost Said:

Every reference I have used marks the beginning of first crack as the beginning of the 'finish' period. The duration of first crack is a measure of finish pace and/or bean uniformity and/or heat uniformity.

Posted November 20, 2013 link

I'm always looking for more information.  Which references are you referring to?

Most of the references I read go along with Tom Owens' (Sweet Maria's) "basic" approach and break the roast down into discrete stages, giving BT for each, discussion of color, etc., but not giving any particular advice.  In my limited experience, one doesn't see much -- other than things which are oriented towards particular roasters -- that tell you "do this," or "do that" at a particular stage.

Furthermore, until very recently, most of the useful advice I've picked up along the way wasn't published by "experts," but came from internet forums

Once in a while you run into something published AND practical, for instance Tom Owens' (again) series Stretchin' Out the Roast.  If you've read that you know that Tom got a more profound effect from controlling the post 1st interval (Part 1) than from controlling the length of 1st itself (Part 2).  But the advice is far from unanimous.  It's interesting to note the differences in results based profiling approaches towards both the drying and  post 1st stages between Owens, Boot and Diedrich.  

From my own experience, I've found that the best approach to balancing bean interior development with a sweet surface is to slow the roast at onset of 1st with gas to low, fan to med high and damper to full roaster, but (of course) not letting it stall; and slowing it further after 1st ends (gas to pilot, fan to high).  Note that settings are completely roaster dependent, and that what works for me with mine may not work for you, or even be impossible.  

Roasters aside, a problem with this a generic advice is that end of 1st is defined by a minimum amount of time without continuous cracking (for instance 30 seconds, with only a "wild crack" or two).  Thus unless you're using BT (or some other consistent, real-time indication) real-time recognition is nearly impossible.    

All of this goes to highlight some of of the Behmor's greatest weaknesses.  Absent significant modification, it doesn't allow the roaster precise, real-time identification of roast phase.  Nor does it allow the user sufficiently fine, real-time adjustment of temp and air flow to do nuanced profiling.  That doesn't make it a bad roaster.  On the contrary, it's an incredible piece of equipment for the money. Not only is there nothing like at in its price range, it's all the roaster many roastmasters will ever want.  

BDL
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boar_d_laze
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Joined: 21 Nov 2006
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Location: Monrovia, CA
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Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Thu Nov 21, 2013, 10:05am
Subject: Re: yet another behmor 1600 question...
 

OregonCityMan Said:

boar_d_laze: Since you live in So California, do you do any business with Bodhi Leaf coffee? Any opinion is appreciated.

Posted November 20, 2013 link


Not yet.  Right now I've got way too much greens on hand, not to mention irons in the fire, to order more.  But their offerings look interesting, their prices look good, they're open to the public (fun!), and they're close enough that driving is only a skosh more expensive than shipping.  Maybe after the holidays I can justify driving down there to buy a few pounds to sample take my wife out for lunch.

BDL
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JKalpin
Senior Member
JKalpin
Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 805
Location: Thornhill, Ontario Canada
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Aerobie Aeropress
Grinder: Baratza Maestro Plus
Vac Pot: Yama 5-Cup
Drip: Krups Moka Brew, BraZen
Roaster: Freshroast+8, Behmor 1600
Posted Thu Nov 21, 2013, 2:57pm
Subject: Re: yet another behmor 1600 question...
 

boar_d_laze Said:

That said, most roasters use "end of 1st" rather than onset of "1st" as the milestone on the way to drop, because it's a more accurate and more immediate measure.

Posted November 20, 2013 link

Ya-but …there are some beans where the 1CR is very sparse and some where the 1CR runs into the 2CR.  So using the end of the first crack can be unreliable.  

I would prefer a temperature reference point if I could figure out how to insert a probe into the Behmor.

 
Jerry
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boar_d_laze
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Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,335
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Thu Nov 21, 2013, 4:24pm
Subject: Re: yet another behmor 1600 question...
 

JKalpin Said:

Ya-but …there are some beans where the 1CR is very sparse and some where the 1CR runs into the 2CR.  So using the end of the first crack can be unreliable.

Posted November 21, 2013 link

Sadly true.  

I would prefer a temperature reference point if I could figure out how to insert a probe into the Behmor.

Who wouldn't want a reliable reference?  And that's one of the biggest challenges present in roasting with a Behmor (which, with a lot of effort, actually can be probed).  The other, to rephrase what I said in the previous post, is what to do with the information once you have it.  A Behmor isn't what you'd call responsive, under the best of circumstances.  

As long as you're using the Behmor's programming with recommended doses, there's not much you can do to control the last leg of the roast.  Every roaster has its limitations -- even the big boys.  

It's been a long time since I used a Behmor -- since whatever year they first came out -- and I don't remember what I did to make it work better than its programming well enough to offer advice.  You want to get involved with a Behmor specific community, and you really, really want Roaster Thing.

BDL
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Frost
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Frost
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 2,101
Location: Sierra
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Isomac Venus
Grinder: Lelit PL53
Roaster: Poppery I w/variac, MET, BT
Posted Thu Nov 21, 2013, 4:36pm
Subject: Re: yet another behmor 1600 question...
 

Look to the basic degrees of roast starting with City; The roast is stopped at the completion of first crack.
Wanting maximum flavor development, the roaster may choose to stretch first crack for (requisite) 3 minutes finish. (should the roaster's roaster be capable of such....) First crack is the crescendo, the climax, the blossom of flavor development; it's beginning and pace is a signpost of great significance.  IMO not completing first crack is 'under-roasted'.
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johnd89
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Posted Mon Dec 30, 2013, 11:49pm
Subject: Re: yet another behmor 1600 question...
 

ok really ready to pull the trigger on this bad boy now;-)
one last question, obviously answered....
if I use it under the range hood (it's a nice one 400ish cfm) could it still set the soke alarm?
this won't stop me, I understand a gene is worse, just wanted to have an ideea to know what to expect.
thanks!
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