Posted Tue Oct 16, 2012, 3:14pm Subject: Re: Quest M3 Roaster - New Asymmetric Heating?
Endo:
Not only would I worry about needing replacement sooner but I would be concerned about the Insurance Company getting involved if something went wrong. I have heard of cases where an insurance company denied a claim that the electrical fire was caused by an incorrect breaker manufacturer in the main panel, not an incorrect breaker size/rating, but not the same manufacturer's name as the panel manufacturer! Pretty damn picky if you ask me but that was the case.
This probably means that you might have to learn your roasting times all over again if the lower voltage, over driven element, needs replacement? I would wager that would be the case, so I would beg Mr. Yen for an element that does not need to be over driven and you can start generating a new set of roasting tables.
Endo Senior Member Joined: 26 Jun 2008 Posts: 804 Location: , location, location. Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: machine is < important than... Grinder: !
Posted Tue Oct 16, 2012, 4:24pm Subject: Re: Quest M3 Roaster - New Asymmetric Heating?
Mr.Yen tells me not to worry. I can't hurt the roaster. I assume this means they have done testing on this arrangement for the Canadian 120V and have not encountered any problems.
Still, I will ask again and perhaps purchase a spare 116V in case the 100V craps out.
Should I really be concerned for safety? Don't these heaters simply burn out and stop working if they get too hot during a roast? Or are you concerned with something else?
DavecUK Senior Member Joined: 21 Sep 2005 Posts: 915 Location: UK Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Wed Oct 17, 2012, 2:47am Subject: Re: Quest M3 Roaster - New Asymmetric Heating?
Endo,
It's not the right way to do things is it. If they need more power, then they ought to do it properly, not overdrive an underrated element so it delivers more than it's design rating. The 100V element will have a shorter life than it's design life and it could be quite a lot shorter. I speak from personal experience from doing some work with a roaster manufacturer.
Heating elements have a watts per sq cm rating and if you need more power, the correct way is to use a longer (but correctly rated) higher wattage element. Asymmetric heating (if the term came from Quest) is a word pulled outta their ass as a way of fobbing off the public with a rather cheap and nasty way of getting more heat (think about it, even 2* 108V elements would have been better, not right, but better). That 100V element will be putting out considerably more watts of energy on that side......unfortunately elements are rated with the view of max temp in mind. Tubular elements that glow bright orange, don't last very long (unless they are very special) and those are not.
Like I say it's the wrong way to do it....Think about it like this. Imagine a very small "special" element that gets VERY hot (it's only 6 cm long), it gives out 1400W of heat. Ideal to stick in the roaster? No, you get a HOT spot (in this case a very hot spot). The roaster would work far better with a MUCH longer element giving out the same 1400W, but over a much larger area. It will roast better and the roaster will last longer. It's an extreme example to try and illustrate a point.
I would recommend you get yourself a 116V element, warm the room you roast in and vent the roaster. I have no problem in the UK with ambients down to 3C or even less.
Endo Senior Member Joined: 26 Jun 2008 Posts: 804 Location: , location, location. Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: machine is < important than... Grinder: !
Posted Wed Oct 17, 2012, 4:39am Subject: Re: Quest M3 Roaster - New Asymmetric Heating?
Thanks Dave. I agree with most your points.
Speaking from personal experience with this design though, I can say it roasts well. This is most likely due to the fact everything is in motion (air, drum, beans), so hot spots do not develop as if it was static. Also, if you think scale-wise, the Quest heaters are actually VERY large compared to the rest of the roaster. I would suspect much larger in terms of surface area per drum volume as compared to a large 25 kg commercial roaster. No?
My worry has more to do with shorter heater life (say if it dies after 2 years and the company is no longer around). I am also concerned the static stainless outer drum could see a local hot spot and develop a ugly blue color.
So I sent Mr.Yen an e-mail and asked for a 116V element. I suppose all I need to do is swap the 110V with the 116V? (There are no other internal changes that would prevent this?). Will my amp draw and watts now be lower like the normal Quests? If so, can you explain how that happens?
By the way, I came up with the name "asymmetric heating" since it most correctly describes the design (I'm not trying to be fancy here, it's just a familiar term in my profession). Quest said nothing about the heaters until I showed a picture to them and asked if it was broken.
Posted Wed Oct 17, 2012, 6:02am Subject: Re: Quest M3 Roaster - New Asymmetric Heating?
I have been emailing Sweet Maria's ( http://www.sweetmarias.com/index.php) who apparently sell the Quest in the U.S. and their response to one of my several questions was the below.
-------------------
Hi Stephen,
Thanks for the note. The 220v do not ship from our warehouse, they are a special order for international customers. The Quests are intended for use as sampler roasters for mircro-roasters or back up sample roasters for those in the coffee industry and are not recommended for home use.
Best Regards, Erica
On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 3:29 PM, S.S. wrote: Erica:
Thanks for the heads up on the smoke. I guess it is an outside only roaster :-(
I have access to 220V at just about any amperage required so that is not a problem. I saw nothing about 120V current draw, like how many amps is required to operate it @ 120V? I know it has a meter on it that reads amps required/delivered for some part of the machine but that is not necessarily the amps required for total operation of the machine.
Stephen
On Oct 16, 2012, at 3:19 PM, Coffee Shrub wrote:
Hi Stephen,
Thanks for the note. The 220 roasters are running 220 current usually if you are in the USA you will want to get the 120v roaster. These roasters produce a lot of smoke and you will want to disable your smoke alarms probably even if you are using the kitchen vent hood.
Best- Erica
On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 1:48 PM, S.S. wrote: Erica:
I do indeed have a question about the Quest.
Is it sold in the USA as a 120VAC, and or, 220VAC? If there is a 220VAC offering what would the advantage be in doing that?
Can this roaster be used inside a home without setting off all the smoke alarms? If an exhaust fan is needed would a vented to the outside kitchen stove hood suffice?
Thanks,
Stephen
--------------------
It is pretty clear that Sweet Maria's is aware of the consequences of selling a machine without all the approvals by agencies like U.L. and C.E.
It is a nice sized, featured and aesthetically looking little roaster but I am not so sure how comfortable I would feel running it in my home. I wish Quest would do what is necessary to get the little roaster "approved".
DavecUK Senior Member Joined: 21 Sep 2005 Posts: 915 Location: UK Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Wed Oct 17, 2012, 6:48am Subject: Re: Quest M3 Roaster - New Asymmetric Heating?
Endo Said:
So I sent Mr.Yen an e-mail and asked for a 116V element. I suppose all I need to do is swap the 110V with the 116V? (There are no other internal changes that would prevent this?). Will my amp draw and watts now be lower like the normal Quests? If so, can you explain how that happens?
By the way, I came up with the name "asymmetric heating" since it most correctly describes the design (I'm not trying to be fancy here, it's just a familiar term in my profession). Quest said nothing about the heaters until I showed a picture to them and asked if it was broken.
Yes, just put a 116V element in there....like I said many posts ago, they are probably using "half" of the sine wave (either triacs or diodes) to each element for the UK and therefore 2 x 116V elements. In the US they presumably only need to send 120V (nominal), with no rectification to each side of the roaster, or more likely between 110 - 120V due to fluctuations in US power supplies (similar fluctuations in UK).
Asymmetric heating.....aha so you're the culprit.....I just thought it was a bit of nobsense the company had come up with (and no the b is not a typo). No insult to you intended.
Endo Senior Member Joined: 26 Jun 2008 Posts: 804 Location: , location, location. Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: machine is < important than... Grinder: !
Posted Wed Oct 17, 2012, 7:04am Subject: Re: Quest M3 Roaster - New Asymmetric Heating?
BLrdFX Said:
The Quests are intended for use as sampler roasters for mircro-roasters or back up sample roasters for those in the coffee industry and are not recommended for home use.
OF COURSE they can't recommend using it inside. They would be liable if they did. What did you expect them to say?
But what they say about smoke is completely wrong. Think about it: The Quest roasts relatively small batches (150g usually) so a smaller volume of chaff exits the drum IMMEDIATELY as it roasts and is then trapped by a catcher near the cool fan in the back. As a result, this roaster makes VERY little smoke compared to other roasters. In fact, I have roasted 10 batches indoors now (with my stove vent on low) and have never ONCE set off my smoke alarm. Last time I even used 225g and went past 2C (full city +) and still no problem.
In comparison, the other roasters I own are like chimneys and set off my alarm almost every time. Even though they may have CE or UL approvals, you should be aware that myself and many others have experienced fires. Luckily most are contained in the roaster, but the roaster ends up detroyed or heavily damaged. YOU can choose which is safer (don't really only on a bureaucrats stamp). My mind is made up.
Posted Wed Oct 17, 2012, 7:21am Subject: Re: Quest M3 Roaster - New Asymmetric Heating?
Endo Said:
OF COURSE they can't recommend using it inside. They would be liable if they did. What did you expect them to say?
But what they say about smoke is completely wrong. Think about it: The Quest roasts relatively small batches (150g usually) so a smaller volume of chaff exits the drum IMMEDIATELY as it roasts and is then trapped by a catcher near the cool fan in the back. As a result, this roaster makes VERY little smoke compared to other roasters. In fact, I have roasted 10 batches indoors now (with my stove vent on low) and have never ONCE set off my smoke alarm. Last time I even used 225g and went past 2C (full city +) and still no problem.
In comparison, the other roasters I own are like chimneys and set off my alarm almost every time. Even though they may have CE or UL approvals, you should be aware that myself and many others have experienced fires. Luckily most are contained in the roaster, but the roaster ends up detroyed or heavily damaged. YOU can choose which is safer (don't really only on a bureaucrats stamp). My mind is made up.
I figured that part of their response was a CYA response but it also was apparent that they were not electricians! Also the smoke statement went against what your real world practical application was saying, and I am far more likely to believe a user of the device than the seller of such a unit.
endo, you have done a great job in documenting the use of the Quest roaster and heaping kudos on you is definitely in order! You have become the Beta Tester for this micro roaster and I for one really appreciate your work :-)
Are you planning to install that 116V so the heating elements glow equally?
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