Our Valued Sponsor
OpinionsConsumer ReviewsGuides and How TosCoffeeGeek ReviewsResourcesForums
Coffee: Home Roasting Talk
Troublesome Beans
Cafe Solutions
Commercial sales and service, nationwide installation, equipment leasing options.
www.seattlecoffeegear.com
 
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered  
Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Discussions > Coffee > Home Roast > Troublesome...  
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
Author Messages
JKalpin
Senior Member
JKalpin
Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 822
Location: Thornhill, Ontario Canada
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Aerobie Aeropress
Grinder: Baratza Maestro Plus
Vac Pot: Yama 5-Cup
Drip: Krups Moka Brew, BraZen
Roaster: Freshroast+8, Behmor 1600+
Posted Fri Sep 2, 2011, 11:55am
Subject: Troublesome Beans
 

Over the past few weeks I have been struggling with El Salvador Manzano SHG EP dry processed beans.

Problem #1:  Sweet Maria's recommends Behmor P2 or P1.  I find P2 very difficult to work with.  The power dip never seems to be in the right  place.  That 'right place' seems to change with the line voltage.  Those two things considered, I can't predict, by timing, when to terminate the roast.

Problem #2:  This bean is VERY sensitive to timing.  The difference between an under-roast (sour) and an over-roast (ashy) might be only 30 seconds.  Furthermore, there is not much (if any) lull between the 1CR and the 2CR.

Problem #3:  After the roast is completed it is almost impossible to tell what roast level I have achieved.  An under-roast is medium brown.  An over-roast is slightly darker with a minor oil sheen (but no oil spots).  I have only succeeded once (after 2-1/2 lbs) to do a good roast.  So I have 2 containers, 1 under and 1 good.  If they were not labelled I could not tell which was which.  All of them grow slightly darker after a week.  And I will say this:  The good roast is exceptional.  

Problem #4:  I have never encountered as much chaff in any other bean.  My poor little vacuum cleaner is developing asthma.

Problem #5:  I have never encountered as much bloom, when brewing.  It almosts defeats the whole processs.  Dealing with bloom in an Aeropress has been covered in other threads, and ...whatever they say ...I'm doing.

If anyone has any good advice, please post.  I have 9-1/2 lbs left in inventory.

 
Jerry
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
Netphilosopher
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Posts: 1,602
Location: USA
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Sat Sep 3, 2011, 7:17am
Subject: .
 

.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
dana_leighton
Moderator
dana_leighton
Joined: 11 Jan 2002
Posts: 2,036
Location: Fayetteville, AR
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Isomac Relax; Caferina...
Grinder: Macap MXK; Baratza Vario-W;...
Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: Technivorm; CCD; Melitta
Roaster: Poppery I w/PID controller
Posted Sat Sep 3, 2011, 9:32am
Subject: Re: Troublesome Beans
 

JKalpin Said:

Problem #2:  This bean is VERY sensitive to timing.  The difference between an under-roast (sour) and an over-roast (ashy) might be only 30 seconds.  Furthermore, there is not much (if any) lull between the 1CR and the 2CR.

Posted September 2, 2011 link

I am not seeing this. I roasted yesterday for espresso, and the roast went for 3-1/2 minutes after 1C until I hit 435 BT and I didn't yet get a second crack. Unless I missed it with the first crack. I did notice some slightly quieter cracks at the end of 1C. The resulting roast was definitely in the FC color range. I also roasted to 430 BT for a more City+ range, and tasted it a few hours after roasting. Not sour in the Clever Coffee Dripper brew. Smooth and sweet with a bit of berry (black, rasp I dunno).

(edit) After a day's rest, the berry seems to be fading, and a tannic quality is emerging. Not really sour, but astringent. The espresso I tried this morning was definitely sour, but I might try changing dose to see if I can overcome that.

The roast is somewhat uneven, which might be expected for DP beans I think. I had to cull a few burned beans, and several underroasted.

FWIW, here's a chart of the BT measured where the air is leaving the beans (on my modified Poppery)

dana_leighton: roast.png
(Click for larger image)

 
Dana Leighton - Espresso hack and CoffeeGeek moderator
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
Frost
Senior Member
Frost
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 2,116
Location: Sierra
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Isomac Venus
Grinder: Lelit PL53
Roaster: Poppery I w/variac, MET, BT
Posted Sat Sep 3, 2011, 3:34pm
Subject: Re: Troublesome Beans
 

I just got started with this bean myself. Always hoping for a bright and lively fruited DP, I went for a lighter faster roast. It was rough, and not pleasing with that tannic/astringent finish.  Second batch I went more conservative slowed the drying to  full 4 minutes and finish almost 4 minutes to Full City.  Just tasted a couple days ago, and much better balance & developed flavor, mostly gone astringent finish.  OOps, already blended with 1/3 El Salvador Finca Siberia Bourbon....
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
JKalpin
Senior Member
JKalpin
Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 822
Location: Thornhill, Ontario Canada
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Aerobie Aeropress
Grinder: Baratza Maestro Plus
Vac Pot: Yama 5-Cup
Drip: Krups Moka Brew, BraZen
Roaster: Freshroast+8, Behmor 1600+
Posted Mon Sep 5, 2011, 12:47pm
Subject: Re: Troublesome Beans
 

This is one case where I think temperature measurement would be a big help.

With the Behmor I time the conclusion of the roast from the onset of the 1CR.  1:45 seems to be right for me, provided that the line voltage is in a range of 118 - 120V.  If i give it 15 seconds more it runs away and I end up with 30 seconds of 2CR and an unpleasant ashy taste.  And 1:30 min after the 1CR gives me a sour light roast.  As I said previously, there is not much change in colour and I also agree that the roast is never as even as I have with other beans.

 
Jerry
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
Frost
Senior Member
Frost
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 2,116
Location: Sierra
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Isomac Venus
Grinder: Lelit PL53
Roaster: Poppery I w/variac, MET, BT
Posted Tue Sep 6, 2011, 8:31pm
Subject: Re: Troublesome Beans
 

Many roasting experts agree, for example, Willem Boot,   http://www.bootcoffee.com/articles.html  
that you really need at least 3 minutes after the onset of first crack before you complete the roast. I find 3.5 to 4 minutes works best in my profiles.

The key here is to control the heat in the roast at this point, and for medium to light roasts it's a bit of a tightrope to achieve and sustain enough heat for a good first crack, while not running too fast to second or stalling the roast by removing too much heat.

Not much here for reference on the Behmor. but the ET(Environment Temp) I run to achieve a good first crack is 460-465F. If I hold this temp for the entire finish, I will approach or just start second crack in about 4 minutes finish time.  An ET of 455F is just enough heat to get a good first crack in reasonable time; the lower ET temp limit. Much over 470F for any length of time in the finish will get well into second crack before 4 minutes finish.  I think that's a tight temperature window to hit consistently and I couldn't do it in the Poppery without a good ET thermometer.  With ET control, I can turn out batch after batch to the same roast profile.

Interesting to note also; in order to maintain a constant 460F ET finish temp requires a gradual reduction in power to the heater through the finish phase. ( this with a popper that brings in fresh ambient air to heat.)

This week I'm roasting the Panama DP; Siete Dias de Bellota, but something else on the El Salvador DP worth noting; it seemed to resist heat in the drying, taking more time. It may just be the extra moisture from a fresh crop and the hard Bourbon bean, but it may be the remaining parchment adds some insulation to resist heating early in the roast. I would think this as much an issue with radiant heat of the Behmor as it would be for an air roaster.  

Taking enough time for even drying. ( I doubt this is a problem on the Behmor, but really don't know) but mostly I think you need to get finish times up from 1.5 minutes to 3-4 minute range. This is where you will get the most flavor development going from the sour and astringent notes to the full flavored and more balanced roast.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
dana_leighton
Moderator
dana_leighton
Joined: 11 Jan 2002
Posts: 2,036
Location: Fayetteville, AR
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Isomac Relax; Caferina...
Grinder: Macap MXK; Baratza Vario-W;...
Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: Technivorm; CCD; Melitta
Roaster: Poppery I w/PID controller
Posted Tue Sep 6, 2011, 9:17pm
Subject: Re: Troublesome Beans
 

Frost Said:

the ET(Environment Temp) I run to achieve a good first crack is 460-465F. If I hold this temp for the entire finish, I will approach or just start second crack in about 4 minutes finish time.  An ET of 455F is just enough heat to get a good first crack in reasonable time; the lower ET temp limit. Much over 470F for any length of time in the finish will get well into second crack before 4 minutes finish.  I think that's a tight temperature window to hit consistently and I couldn't do it in the Poppery without a good ET thermometer.  With ET control, I can turn out batch after batch to the same roast profile.

Posted September 6, 2011 link

I am running a similar profile. Basically, I ramp up to 350 ET (300 BT) for the 4-5 min drying phase, then 3-4 mins up to 445 at about 8 mins which I hold for 1 min. The BT hits around 390 at 8 mins, and often starting 1C, and it rises up to about 410 in the next minute. THen I take a leisurely 4 mins to 465, which is a finishing BT of about 435-438, for a Full City roast, on the edge of 2C.

For this bean, I am experimenting with a ramp going from 250 ET for 1 minute straight to 445 ET in either 4, 5, or 6 more minutes, followed by a 445 for 1 minute hold, then a 4 minute finish to about 460. I'm hoping this will bring out more sweetness, but it may fail miserably. I will try them (roasted yesterday) in a few days. The shortest roast didn't really hit first crack until after I got through the 445 holding period. That makes me think the beans just couldn't soak up the heat that fast.

 
Dana Leighton - Espresso hack and CoffeeGeek moderator
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
Frost
Senior Member
Frost
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 2,116
Location: Sierra
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Isomac Venus
Grinder: Lelit PL53
Roaster: Poppery I w/variac, MET, BT
Posted Wed Sep 7, 2011, 8:14am
Subject: Re: Troublesome Beans
 

I'm still using this basic script with hands on adjusment:

"Re: Kona, my Arduino PID roaster project"

All the constants are variable. Now mostly using softer ramp delta (ET-BT=70 to 75F)... higher early,  lower as first crack approaches.  Ending ET 465, I still run 465F to achieve first crack. once underway I back off to 460F for Full City.  Lighter roast back off to 455.  Light and slow just finishes at 455.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
JKalpin
Senior Member
JKalpin
Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 822
Location: Thornhill, Ontario Canada
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Aerobie Aeropress
Grinder: Baratza Maestro Plus
Vac Pot: Yama 5-Cup
Drip: Krups Moka Brew, BraZen
Roaster: Freshroast+8, Behmor 1600+
Posted Wed Sep 7, 2011, 12:53pm
Subject: Re: Troublesome Beans
 

Frost Said:

...but something else on the El Salvador DP worth noting; it seemed to resist heat in the drying, taking more time. It may just be the extra moisture from a fresh crop and the hard Bourbon bean, but it may be the remaining parchment adds some insulation to resist heating early in the roast. I would think this as much an issue with radiant heat of the Behmor as it would be for an air roaster.  

Taking enough time for even drying. ( I doubt this is a problem on the Behmor, but really don't know) but mostly I think you need to get finish times up from 1.5 minutes to 3-4 minute range. This is where you will get the most flavor development going from the sour and astringent notes to the full flavored and more balanced roast.

Posted September 6, 2011 link

The Behmor manual recommends their P2 profile for the Manzano.

It has full power up to 66% of the roast time, where it drops to 66% of the power, until 90% of the roast, whereupon it goes back to full power.  This might be what you are doing, using temperature as your guide.  But it's impossible to visualize in the Behmor, particularly if you add in 1:30 min of drying time ...!!

I had a recent email from Danny Hall at Rainfrog Inc.  He is working on an upgrade to his Roastmaster app and it sounds like it will drop that curve (or a temperature curve) on the chart it generates while you roast.  Maybe it is wishful thinking on my part, but ...!!

Now, about the extreme bloom in my Aeropress from the Manzano:  I found good results in starting with a very small amount of hot water.  I stir it half a dozen times to get it properly wet.  Just as a pot of porridge does not foam (just goes bloop bloop) the thick coffee slurry does not foam.  But it does release the CO2.  Then I fill it up with hot water, stir a bit, wait a minute and 'plunge'.  Much less problems with bloom.

 
Jerry
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
Netphilosopher
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Posts: 1,602
Location: USA
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Wed Sep 7, 2011, 6:11pm
Subject: .
 

.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
Discussions > Coffee > Home Roast > Troublesome...  
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered     Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
Discussions Quick Jump:
Symbols: New Posts= New Posts since your last visit      No New Posts= No New Posts since last visit     Go to most recent post= Newest post
Forum Rules:
No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards.
No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum.
No SEO style postings will be tolerated. SEO related posts will result in immediate ban from CoffeeGeek.
No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum.
Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards.
Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics.
Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies.
Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies.
Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts.
Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
Jebana from Ethiopia
Ultra Low Tech, for the CoffeeGeek with everything. Beautiful, and Functional too.
www.coffeeproject.com
Home | Opinions | Consumer Reviews | Guides & How Tos | CoffeeGeek Reviews | Resources | Forums | Contact Us
CoffeeGeek.com, CoffeeGeek, and Coffee Geek, along with all associated content & images are copyright ©2000-2014 by Mark Prince, all rights reserved, unless otherwise indicated. Content, code, and images may not be reused without permission. Usage of this website signifies agreement with our Terms and Conditions. (0.363970041275)
Privacy Policy | Copyright Info | Terms and Conditions | CoffeeGeek Advertisers | RSS | Find us on Google+