Sii Senior Member Joined: 10 Mar 2011 Posts: 2 Location: Skipton, England Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Gaggia Coffee Classic Grinder: Gaggia MDF Drip: Also Gaggia!
Posted Thu Mar 10, 2011, 10:53am Subject: Re: Post Roast Coffee Bean Care
Hi All,
I think we tend to forget that coffee is a foodstuff just like meat and veg, and once the bean is roasted it is effectively cooked and should be treated that way. Anything beyond this is simply the preperation for the various uses of cooked (roasted) coffee.
There are many ways of trying to keep roasted coffee fresher for longer, and I think that everyone experiments when they start to fall in love with coffee, I know I did, but every attempt has its own pro’s and con’s and when one realises this, one is forced to accept the inevitable truth that coffee does not last for ever, and should be treated accordingly, not harassed into something it does not like just to try and get a few extra days or weeks out of it’s shelf life. Nothing beats well treated fresh coffee. I find that roasted beans keep well in preserving jars on a cool shelf for upto 7 days for the most discerning of folk and 14 for most.
Two things that occurred to me while reading the thread and sipping my Old Brown Java are –
Why on earth would one want to store coffee? Surely we should simply accept the few limitations of coffee, as we do other foodstuffs, and live with them in favour of taste and reverence. After all we do not try to extend the shelf life of a cooked fillet steak or 16LB lobster, which is much less than that of coffee!
And if one roasts one’s own coffee, is the whole point of doing this not because one recognises the need for fresh coffee and wants to eliminate as much storage after roasting as possible?
Posted Thu Mar 10, 2011, 11:46am Subject: Re: Post Roast Coffee Bean Care
Sii Said:
... Two things that occurred to me while reading the thread and sipping my Old Brown Java are –
Why on earth would one want to store coffee? Surely we should simply accept the few limitations of coffee, as we do other foodstuffs, and live with them in favour of taste and reverence. After all we do not try to extend the shelf life of a cooked fillet steak or 16LB lobster, which is much less than that of coffee!
And if one roasts one’s own coffee, is the whole point of doing this not because one recognises the need for fresh coffee and wants to eliminate as much storage after roasting as possible?
Previous posts on why aside (my own interest, etc.), it boils down to two or three things for me.
1) I have some friends in foreign countries who are intrigued by my hobby, but do not want to get into home roasting themselves (problems with access to green beans in some countries - take Germany for example - may be more than some want to get into). Shipping them a half-kilo every once in a while might take a few weeks. It would be a shame to ship them something and have it stale when it gets there.
2) Shipping samples to other non-homeroasting enthusiasts or having a reference sample stored. Mason jars are not suitable for shipping a sample to someone.
3) Big corps like *$s get away with telling people coffee is fresh, when it can be 25-30 weeks old and still be before the "use by" date. Stale? Probably somewhat - but if they can do it, what's the real answer?
Once I started, I was interested in what the real limitations are - there's the "rules of thumb" but then somehow a "rule of thumb" that coffee only stays good for 7-14 days regardless of how it's stored is at odds with my own experience. Specialty coffee suppliers certainly store and sell roasted coffee much longer, yet not EVERYTHING is always stale.
Agreed that coffee is partially like a foodstuff that has been cooked when roasted, but not completely agree. It isn't "coffee" until the solubles have been extracted when brewing. Do cocoa beans and ground cocoa go stale? Yet they are roasted and ground prior to use, and are stored for significant periods of time.
Yes, there are many ways of trying to keep roasted coffee fresher for longer, but only SOME of these ways work, and only a few of them work well.
Home roasting isn't just about "just in time" "always fresh" coffee supply - it's about controlling more of the process of creating a drink from tree to cup. For me, it's a learning journey. Sharing this learning with friends from other places is part of the journey. Most attempts at doing something come from a need - in my case I needed to see if there were a way to reasonably and reliably get a 90%+ fresh sample of my own roasted coffee to someone three+ weeks after roasting. It seems like a really "geeky" thing to do, so I figured where better to share it than a forum called "coffeegeek"?
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
After doing my own limited tests I reached the same conclusion. I'm happy with the results I have obtained by vacuum sealing roasted coffee in mason jars and freezing it for up to 60 days. If it is home-roasted coffee then I generally let it degass for three to four days before sealing and freezing. Most of what I freeze is espresso blends bought from commercial roasters such as Red Bird Coffee and Klatch Roasters.
For starters, some commercial roasters give you a price break and free shipping on larger quantities. If you just order a pound or two at a time it can get expensive. I buy Red Bird espresso in 5lb bags and get free shipping. The same 5 pounds, bought one pound at a time, would cost $20 to ship. If you go through a lot of coffee every little bit you can save adds up fast.
I mostly roast my own coffee, but there are a few espresso blends that I am quite fond of, such as Red Bird Espresso and Klatch Belle.
Posted Fri Mar 11, 2011, 5:34am Subject: Re: Post Roast Coffee Bean Care
Additionally, if home roasting were really just all about having fresh-roast coffee less than a week old, many people have access to local mini- or micro-roasters that can get the job done.
More notably, using a local roaster gets freshly roasted coffee without going to all the hobby-trouble of Behmor (or i-roast, or popcorn, or bbq, whatever your roasting method) upkeep, logging temperatures or using kill-a-watts and fussing over when first crack is happening, whether first crack runs into second crack, whether there are stones or whatnot mixed into that bag of monsooned malabar or Suliwesi...
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
Posted Fri Mar 11, 2011, 5:46am Subject: Re: Post Roast Coffee Bean Care
Couple quick updates:
The Guatemala is off-gassing nicely (3/9 roast). Looking forward to sampling the fridge stored vs fresh this weekend.
Opened, brewed and drank sample #3 of the 1/8 roasted batch, vacuum foodsavered and frozen. Wow, very surprising. Bloom still decent, basically what I remember. Aroma spot on. I should have brewed this batch with paper filter, because I used my new polyester felt filter and I daresay this cup may be a bit better than my memory of this bean (India Giri-Region Chandrakan Estates). I think I'll roast some more India Giri this weekend to see if the brewing method makes THAT much of a difference, and check sample #4 vs freshly roasted same bean next week.
That's 8 1/2 weeks post roast, very little to no degradation. Storage method is vacuum foodsaver after off-gassing (3 days post roast), stored in freezer. Thawed 12+ hrs (still sealed), then opened, ground and brewed 62 days post-roast with pretty much full flavor and brew characteristics.
Of course, it may be bean type related (these are pretty decent, dense beans). And, as with any other hobby, YMMV.
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
Sii Senior Member Joined: 10 Mar 2011 Posts: 2 Location: Skipton, England Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Gaggia Coffee Classic Grinder: Gaggia MDF Drip: Also Gaggia!
Posted Fri Mar 11, 2011, 11:17am Subject: Re: Post Roast Coffee Bean Care
Netphilosopher -
Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. I did not mean to cause you offence and apologise if I have in any way done so.
I am afraid I demonstrated my lamentable ignorance by not truly appreciating your interest to take more control over the process and share your expressions with friends further a-field. I assure you my comments were only general, and not intended to be outspoken.
On that note I was merely expressing what I know to be true from a professional view point. I have much experience in food production, storage and shipping with regards to quality control, and have done testing into coffee storage; although this is entirely commercial and so naturally I am sure it will be of no use to the home user.
As a nod to dates on stored coffee and to *$s storing for much time, most packs of store bought for instance will have a BBF date to conform to that company’s quality control policy. That said, from the point of view of the packager their responsibility to quality stops the moment the pack is opened. So it is a catch 22, in that yes coffee can be stored for longer periods of time and be almost as good as fresh, but that is only providing you don’t open it and want to use it more than the once! This is because it will not keep at that level of taste and flavour for much more than a few days or a week at best. Where as, a roast that has sat on a cool shelf in a jar for 14 days will have much more to give in comparison.
Once again, please accept my apologies I did not intend to pose as crass nor undermine your efforts.
Posted Fri Mar 11, 2011, 11:31am Subject: Re: Post Roast Coffee Bean Care
Sii Said:
Netphilosopher -
Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. I did not mean to cause you offence and apologise if I have in any way done so.
I am afraid I demonstrated my lamentable ignorance by not truly appreciating your interest to take more control over the process and share your expressions with friends further a-field. I assure you my comments were only general, and not intended to be outspoken.
On that note I was merely expressing what I know to be true from a professional view point. I have much experience in food production, storage and shipping with regards to quality control, and have done testing into coffee storage; although this is entirely commercial and so naturally I am sure it will be of no use to the home user.
As a nod to dates on stored coffee and to *$s storing for much time, most packs of store bought for instance will have a BBF date to conform to that company’s quality control policy. That said, from the point of view of the packager their responsibility to quality stops the moment the pack is opened. So it is a catch 22, in that yes coffee can be stored for longer periods of time and be almost as good as fresh, but that is only providing you don’t open it and want to use it more than the once! This is because it will not keep at that level of taste and flavour for much more than a few days or a week at best. Where as, a roast that has sat on a cool shelf in a jar for 14 days will have much more to give in comparison.
Once again, please accept my apologies I did not intend to pose as crass nor undermine your efforts.
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
Posted Sun Mar 13, 2011, 10:49am Subject: Re: Post Roast Coffee Bean Care
Yesterday, I finally sampled my 1/29 refrigerated Ziploc Vacuum Bagged and my most recent 3/9 roast on 3/12 [Guatemala Huehuetenango Finca La Maravilla]
This coffee isn't the most balanced I've ever had, but it's still pretty nice with a lot of varietal flavor.
Inverted Aeropress, Grind between espresso and drip, 60 second contact time, 205ºF water, filter = 5micron Polyester Felt Filter.
Sample 1 was roasted 1/29/11 and stored within 5 minutes in a Ziploc Vacuum Bag, and put in the REFRIGERATOR (approx 38ºF), undisturbed until 3/11 where I brought it up to ambient by putting it in the same container as the off-gassing 3/9 roast.
Sample 2 was roasted 43 days later on 3/9/11, the other half of my bag of this bean. 1C was within 15 seconds of the same bean, lasted approximately as long, and was roasted the same way (door opening to control temperature to same range throughout all of 1C). It was rested 2 1/2 days, where it off-gassed noticeably.
Both roasts were done roasting before 15 minutes.
Bean appearance comparison: 1/29 roast, small flecks of oil, fairly dry. 3/9 roast, only a very few oil flecks otherwise dry. Overall appearance is extremely similar except for the difference in oil flecks. Typical of my FC+15 seconds roast (2nd crack +15 seconds).
Bean aroma comparison: Initially, the 1/29 had a slightly "firmer" roast aroma which immediately gave way to the typical brown-sugar tinged aroma of this coffee. The 3/9 roast was more immediately like what I expected. AFTER first opening both bags, the aroma of the two is basically indistinguishable and I could not determine a difference by blindly sniffing each.
Ground aroma comparison: Pretty much indistinguishable. Typical somewhat fruity with hints of citrus and brown sugar.
First wetted grounds aroma comparison: Again, very much the same. Here the fruit starts to pop, both very similar with some citrus (not necessarily lemon but more orangey) and maybe apple or pear. Also a hint of brown sugar or even maybe molasses.
Bloom Comparison: Ok, the first differences show here.
The first brewed was the 1/29 batch. Very nice bloom, surprising really. Good, foamy, took several seconds to subside, much more than any "freshly" opened bag of Starbucks. MAYBE but not conclusively less than any other 3-day rested roast. Still what I would consider a fairly fresh batch of roasted coffee. (The bloom pretty much disappears if coffee is left in an open bowl for 7 days or even less, by comparison) Then I brewed the 3/9 batch and the bloom was nearly unmanageable. This is one of the largest blooms I had gotten since starting home roasting except for coffee brewed within an hour of roasting - I think I was a bit premature in sampling this batch, it maybe hadn't fully off-gassed or rested long enough. But onward we go in the name of curiosity.
Flavor comparison: 1/29 roast was a nice cup of medium body coffee, very reminiscent of my first sample of it weeks ago. There as a bit of fruity flavor, with overlay of caramel apple, and noticeable but not overly bright citrus (more orange than lemon). Dark caramel / toffee finish, with a bit of molasses lingering on the tongue. Just a very small hint of smoke. MAYBE a little bit less varietal character, but still lots of it present.
By contrast the 3/9 roast was surprising - almost a POP of citrus right away, giving way to a lighter body coffee with noticeable brightness. Somewhat toward the lemony side, not quite sour. Slight hints of nuts, not very much chocolate. Low sweetness. Little smoke. Definitely the same flavor profile but more away from darker and sweeter flavors and toward brightness and acidity.
Conclusion: I think I may have partially underextracted the 3/9 batch due to the bloom. It took so long for the bloom to subside that in adding additional brew water I used up more of the contact time. I was really surprised by the lemon pop, and I don't think it was due to roast differences nor "staling" of the comparison sample.
Conversely, I might have waited just a few beats too long for the contact time of the 1/29 roast, as I was assessing the roast and fitting the cap with the Polyester Felt (thicker and sometimes a bit of trouble getting it on). It had a bit more smoke than I remember weeks ago when I first roasted it.
I would not consider the 1/29 roast "deteriorated" or "stale" by any means. It had a noticeable bloom when brewed, all the right aromas and brewing inconsistency aside (my bad, there) was a pretty darn good coffee (even if it wasn't 43 days post roast). If I had to assign it a deterioration factor based on only one sample, I'd say this is easily still 90%-95% as good as or on par with a 4 day post roast coffee.
After this first experiment, I re-vacuum packed these in the same Ziploc Vacuum bags, and put them in a sealed container together, at ambient in the cupboard. Checking it just a few minutes ago, and the 1/29 sample is still vacuum packed (and therefore fully off-gassed), but the 3/9 sample is still off-gassing and slightly "loose".
I'll try these again together in a few days. This will also give me an idea of whether the 1/29 roast seems to go downhill (i.e. "stale") faster than the freshly roasted if stored and accessed the same way over a week or two.
Cheers!
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
Posted Mon Mar 14, 2011, 7:58am Subject: Re: Post Roast Coffee Bean Care
More musings on what may be happeneing during the evolution of a bean once roasted.
I took a look at the frozen foodsaver vacuum packed samples (different bean but same roast level). These bean have not exhibited any oil flecks on them past what was on the beans when I vacuum packed them. These were packed 3 full days (closer to 3 1/2) post roast, and developed a few flecks of oil prior to packing.
The 1/29 Guatemala refrigerated roast had quite a few oil spots/flecks on them when I opened them 43 days post-roast and storage. These flecks developed over several weeks. These were packed immediately after roasting. The 3/8 Guatemala roast is just now starting to develop flecks of oil as it off-gasses, only 5 days post-roast.
Reading the storage article provided by Dana, I see one of the hypotheses is that internal pressures of the cell of the whole roasted beans is what drives the oils out of the bean as it off-gasses (which may bring solubles and aromatics along with the oil migration). One could infer from this that oil migration stops once the off-gassing is complete. This is somehow (in the article) thought of as part of the changes to the post-roasted bean that begins the journey toward Staletown.
Additionally, it stands to reason that if there is pressure forcing these beans to off-gas and push oils out through the hull, then lowering temperature of the newly roasted beans should lower the internal pressure and reduce this effect so that it happens over weeks instead of in a couple days rest. I think that I may be seeing that effect. It also makes sense that Neutral Air Pressurized storage might be one of the better ways to preserve coffee. (When getting rid of Oxygen, I always think of scavenging or vacuum, but displacement makes sense as well)
thanks for the food science article, BTW. Interesting if not partially dry read for the coffee disenthusiast. LOL
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
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