Posted Tue Sep 6, 2011, 6:42am Subject: Re: Next Gen Behmor 1600 Improvements, and other musings.
MGLloyd Said:
In regards to a re-designed Behmor that needs to have a button pushed every 30 seconds to be liability-proof, I might as well just do stovetop stockpot roasting then. Part of the appeal of the Behmor to me is that I can walk away for 10 minutes or so and do other things.
I was thinking about this over the weekend, and I agree that it might be somewhat of a pain. Not so much for me, I log temperatures every 15 seconds anyway, but for those that do what you mention it would be inconvenient. Obviously, the solution is you'd stay with the current Behmor 1600, not the new Behmor 1600M. ;)
BTW, I'm fairly sure this is exactly what Joe doesn't want to hear - the Behmor literature is peppered with warnings that this is not a machine to be left unattended.
However, you do bring up a great point. The roast only really needs attention when it gets close to 1C.
I think a great compromise would be:
Temperature below 350°F (generally below spontaneous ignition temperature of chaff), no input needed. Temperature >350°F requires attention and input every 30 seconds or it goes into cool mode.
The 30 second unattended logic can also be used as a timer - at 2C start, for example, just punch the light on button. 30 seconds later the system will auto-cool.
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
Posted Tue Sep 6, 2011, 6:42am Subject: Re: Next Gen Behmor 1600 Improvements, and other musings.
One other observation: the restart temperature algorithim needs to be revisited. I have had occasions where escapees (even after I've winnowed them out with a 4 minute tumble on cool before roasting) get out of the drum and fall in front of the chaff tray in direct sight of the radiant elements - where they reach 1C, 2C, and go right to vienna before the beans in the drum get to 1C.
These escapees create a $#!tload of smoke when they burn, and can easily impart a smoky odor to the roasting beans. Usually, I have to do the quick and deft removal of the chaff tray without contacting the drum (a move that takes practice), but even then they might be left behind and interfere with the re-insertion of the chaff tray. Then, if I jam up the works, I have no choice but to stop everything, get the escapee beans out, bring the temp of the roast back down, and then re-roast the batch.
A true pain.
There needs to be a 30 second "pause" allowed to remove or adjust something, and restart the roast without having to get the whole darn thing down to <220°F. If the roast is not re-started before the countdown is complete, then the system auto-cools.
This would also help the process flow at end of roast, as this could easily be used during an end of roast for those of us that cool in a separate unit (I dump mine into a Vacuum Bucket-Collander Cooler). Instead of stopping, pulling the drum and chaff tray, dumping the hot beans into the cooler, then going back and re-start on cool, I'd just have to pause the roast, get to cooling, and the machine would - by itself - automatically go to cool in 30 seconds.
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
Not just Behmor but all of the roasters including commercial machines say this and for good reason, all it takes is for some kind of malfunction, like the drum stops spinning and a fire is very possible long before you expect 1st crack. My Diedrich has all sorts of sensors to shut down the machine if they pick up a problem but I won't bet my family and house on a few sensors. I also had two fluke fires with monsooned Malabar in my behmor just before or at the beginning of first crack and these where beans fires not chaff, hot smokey and trouble if I was not there to deal with them, never figured out a reason for that particular bean to do this.
Interesting musings on changes for the Behmor. I would think these changes would drive the price up. Would it be the next generation? or would it be a second model?
Posted Wed Sep 7, 2011, 7:03pm Subject: Re: Next Gen Behmor 1600 Improvements, and other musings.
germantownrob Said:
... Interesting musings on changes for the Behmor. I would think these changes would drive the price up. Would it be the next generation? or would it be a second model?
I don't think that these changes would be so much more expensive - the control algorithm is much simplified. I believe this would be actually safer, and afford SUBSTANTIALLY more control over the heating profile. Those doing work-arounds (opening the door like a pulse-width-modulation for heat...) would be doing much better roasts and I believe more consistent roasts over time.
It would be exchanging a complicated set of programming logic rules (if P2 and if 1lb, and B, cycle at x seconds on x seconds off when time >y else... ) with a constant requested power delivery and a set of safety rules that are easily understood with no reason to try and back-hack the profile or do extensive research on how long x grams of y beans take to reach 1C... The profile is what you decide to do. Period.
Look how long the thread is on P2 power drop on the Behmor - and the results (it didn't do exactly as it was expected - because of a misunderstanding on how it was programmed).
for another example, Maybe - just maybe - I don't ever want the afterburner to come on. It happens. Or maybe I want it on all the time. Why do I need a mysterious and unexplained programmed function to determine when it needs to come on? When does the afterburner come on during the roast? Why? Why would the roaster element turn off and the motor speed up for 30 seconds in the middle of a roast - but only on some days and not others?
When it does these completely unpredictable things, I have half a mind to open the door and point a heat gun into it for 20 seconds...
It'd be simpler, more understandable, and easier to program. Easier to understand, especially in my world, usually means safer, more consistent because it behaves more predictably.
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
Endo Senior Member Joined: 26 Jun 2008 Posts: 804 Location: , location, location. Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: machine is < important than... Grinder: !
Posted Wed Sep 7, 2011, 7:13pm Subject: Re: Next Gen Behmor 1600 Improvements, and other musings.
MGLloyd Said:
In regards to a re-designed Behmor that needs to have a button pushed every 30 seconds to be liability-proof, I might as well just do stovetop stockpot roasting then. Part of the appeal of the Behmor to me is that I can walk away for 10 minutes or so and do other things.
Posted Thu Sep 8, 2011, 9:35am Subject: Re: Next Gen Behmor 1600 Improvements, and other musings.
MGLloyd Said:
In regards to a re-designed Behmor that needs to have a button pushed every 30 seconds to be liability-proof, I might as well just do stovetop stockpot roasting then. Part of the appeal of the Behmor to me is that I can walk away for 10 minutes or so and do other things.
... BTW, I'm fairly sure this is exactly what Joe doesn't want to hear - the Behmor literature is peppered with warnings that this is not a machine to be left unattended. ...
Not just Behmor but all of the roasters including commercial machines say this and for good reason, all it takes is for some kind of malfunction, like the drum stops spinning and a fire is very possible long before you expect 1st crack. My Diedrich has all sorts of sensors to shut down the machine if they pick up a problem but I won't bet my family and house on a few sensors. I also had two fluke fires with monsooned Malabar in my behmor just before or at the beginning of first crack and these where beans fires not chaff, hot smokey and trouble if I was not there to deal with them, never figured out a reason for that particular bean to do this....
All valid counterpoints to NOT having an unattended cooldown logic - personally, I have found that unattended coffee roasting is risky and probably just not very smart. Luckily, I have not had to use my fire extinguisher, but every time I haul out the roaster, it's within 3 steps.
Roasting an Ethiopia Sidamo recently, I had a mini-flameup. Escapees (undersized beans, common in the Ethiopian coffees, I'm finding) found their way out of the drum and ONTO (not INto the chaff tray). The escapees were directly exposed to the element heat, and reached 1C in approximately 3-4 minutes, then crackled, and eventually flamed up about 2 minutes before 1C of the batch. Only a teeny amount - less than a dozen, but burning coffee beans make aLOT of smoke. I did manage to get the chaff tray out without jamming the drum, but it was touch and go for a bit - because a couple of other escapees made their way into the chaff tray and under the vanes - preventing complete compression of the chaff tray.
I think it was also the same Ethiopia Sidamo different roast that I had about 5 beans stick in the drum and completely carbonize - on the ends of the beans. One of them was glowing toward the end of the roast, threatening to combust - like a little cigarette end, just taunting me, rotation after rotation.
So, I do think that for me, unattended roasting is just something I'll probably never do. It's not like baking a cake.
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
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