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efilive
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Joined: 28 Dec 2007
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Posted Sun Jan 3, 2010, 9:47pm
Subject: Re: Understanding changes to Behmor roast profiles
 

wideasleep1 Said:

Behmorthing has been an invaluable tool for understanding its processes, but I submit that it has limitations in that it has no way to correct for voltage differences, bean mass differences, nor temperature ranges of both roast chamber and beans. Imperfect, but still a useful tool...your graph of the legs stay the same despite these differences, and it makes the graphs technically innaccurate.  I never once criticised you or Joe for the roaster or Behmorthing not doing exactly as I expected, the variables are simply too great to expect that from either of you.

Posted January 3, 2010 link

And yet, had you asked or made suggestions about what you see and how it might work in BT, I might have tried to add that to BT. I've added every other suggestion that's come close to making sense that I could figure out.

Ira

 
The guy who wrote RoasterThing
www.RoasterThing.com
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germantownrob
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germantownrob
Joined: 2 Dec 2007
Posts: 2,156
Location: Philadelphia
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar
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Posted Mon Jan 4, 2010, 5:20am
Subject: Re: Understanding changes to Behmor roast profiles
 

I do think people are having high expectations of the profitability of a $200-300 machine. One must spend far more money to get this complete control for a roaster that doesn't cycle it's heating element (even the cafe gene is either on or off). The Behmor is a great machine that can get even a novice to a roast profile that works great at a price that is amazing. I always felt pressing + or - before a roast changed the legs yet trying to repeat that a week later for the same bean wouldn't result in the exact same roast. I grew tired of pressing the button so many times and realized long before the manual's update pushing so many times was going to wear the buttons out so I did as so many suggest changing the load amount and using the A,B,C, etc.

I learned a great deal from the 6 months of a working Behmor. 1- I love to roast. 2- I got a great understanding of the roast process. 3- I wanted full control over my roasts to try and perfect the profiles. I abused my Behmor so don't read into 6 months to much since I did over 100 roasts in that period with little rest time if any between roasts. 4- Wanted a roaster that I could roast back to back on.

I am now looking to upgrade my Hottop since absolute full control of the roast works best with a 150g load (a little more is ok but 150g works out to 3 roasts out of a pound) and this is just not enough output for my needs.

My next step is probably a Toper Cafemino and I have Joe Behm and his Behmor to thank, or blame for this passion of roasting. Keep up the great work Joe and I hope the road smooth out for you soon.
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hankua
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hankua
Joined: 29 Aug 2009
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Posted Mon Jan 4, 2010, 7:17am
Subject: Re: Understanding changes to Behmor roast profiles
 

So that's why this site is called CoffeeGEEK? Love my Behmor, it's way too much fun!

Hank
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farmroast
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Posted Mon Jan 4, 2010, 7:40am
Subject: Re: Understanding changes to Behmor roast profiles
 

It still seems to me that using a Kill-A Watt meter set on watts during a roast(with beans) would tell what is truly happening when comparing different settings. Any watt changes such as when the afterburner kicks in would be distinguishable from program effects. I lent out my unit and did a bunch of mods to it so am unable to try it myself.

 
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germantownrob
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germantownrob
Joined: 2 Dec 2007
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Posted Mon Jan 4, 2010, 8:02am
Subject: Re: Understanding changes to Behmor roast profiles
 

farmroast Said:

It still seems to me that using a Kill-A Watt meter set on watts during a roast(with beans) would tell what is truly happening when comparing different settings. Any watt changes such as when the afterburner kicks in would be distinguishable from program effects. I lent out my unit and did a bunch of mods to it so am unable to try it myself.

Posted January 4, 2010 link

Is there anything you don't mod? LOL

Yes a Kill-A-Watt is great for any Behmor owner and was very effective when set to watts to let you know what was going on in the profile. I also found it very useful for determining what to expect from voltage changes.
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efilive
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Roaster: Hacked Behmor 1600
Posted Mon Jan 4, 2010, 10:48am
Subject: Re: Understanding changes to Behmor roast profiles
 

farmroast Said:

It still seems to me that using a Kill-A Watt meter set on watts during a roast(with beans) would tell what is truly happening when comparing different settings. Any watt changes such as when the afterburner kicks in would be distinguishable from program effects. I lent out my unit and did a bunch of mods to it so am unable to try it myself.

Posted January 4, 2010 link

Well, since heat levels "seem" to be controlled by something like a 15 second on with a variable off time to set the heat level, a Kill-a-Watt just makes it easier to follow the on/off cycles but give no actual indication of the actual heat level. In my experience the elements change color fast enough that figuring it out visually is not really a problem.

Ira

 
The guy who wrote RoasterThing
www.RoasterThing.com
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wideasleep1
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wideasleep1
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Posted Mon Jan 4, 2010, 11:43am
Subject: Re: Understanding changes to Behmor roast profiles
 

efilive Said:

And yet, had you asked or made suggestions about what you see and how it might work in BT, I might have tried to add that to BT. I've added every other suggestion that's come close to making sense that I could figure out.

Ira

Posted January 3, 2010 link

I'll be happy to forward some suggestions, as the changes I have are quite significant... but admit that it will take some time to figure out how my 'new' roaster is behaving...I haven't roasted since before Xmas and then only a few roasts after the changes, but I'm dying to get a fresh roast smell back into this house! :D

I would start by suggesting you tie the bean weight/volume, and the voltage to the graph's action in some fashion..I suppose it is safe to infer that these changes would have a similar effect as pressing the +/- buttons, lower voltages and more mass increasing the leg's durations incrementally and vice-versa.  I think a 30 second 'deadband' or inertia is a reasonable expectation to seek (ie. if BT says 1C is to occur at 13:30, it should realistically occur between 13:15 to around 13:45), does that sound realistic? Is such a change feasible?
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efilive
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Dec 2007
Posts: 183
Location: los angeles
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Expobar Brewtus II
Grinder: Macap M4D/Rocky...
Drip: capresso aroma...
Roaster: Hacked Behmor 1600
Posted Mon Jan 4, 2010, 12:11pm
Subject: Re: Understanding changes to Behmor roast profiles
 

wideasleep1 Said:

I would start by suggesting you tie the bean weight/volume, and the voltage to the graph's action in some fashion..I suppose it is safe to infer that these changes would have a similar effect as pressing the +/- buttons, lower voltages and more mass increasing the leg's durations incrementally and vice-versa.  I think a 30 second 'deadband' or inertia is a reasonable expectation to seek (ie. if BT says 1C is to occur at 13:30, it should realistically occur between 13:15 to around 13:45), does that sound realistic? Is such a change feasible?

Posted January 4, 2010 link

So the only way I can see this working right now would be user defined profiles. The profile lines are what Behmor tells us the machine does. They don't talk about bean mass or voltage or anything. But let's consider voltage, unless you can change it in real time, it's a constant and the percentages and leg times are still a constant. BT shows you the crack times and durations along with the temperature profile, if you log temperatures, of the last roast if you work from duplicate roast which I how I generally think it should be used. You have my email, and as this has nothing to do with this thread I'd be happy to continue it in email or, start a new thread and we can discuss it there.

Ira

 
The guy who wrote RoasterThing
www.RoasterThing.com
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m1nd7r1p
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Joined: 4 Jan 2010
Posts: 3
Location: USA
Expertise: I live coffee

Posted Mon Jan 4, 2010, 12:58pm
Subject: Re: Understanding changes to Behmor roast profiles
 

Just my $0.02 on this issue, but I think it explains problems I've been having with roasting on the P2 profile...

As a long-time roaster having used several methods including a Fresh Roast+, and a whirley-pop on a campstove (my primary means of roasting for the last year), I'm very familiar with the ins and outs of roast heat profiles and their effect on roast quality.  I just received a Behmor in November.  After scouring forums I was using the P1-->P2 method as described by others, since roasting 1/2 lb on P1 without doing anything to the roast other than hitting 'Cool' resulted in a completely over-roasted batch.  I used P1 to find C1, then opened the door 5 of every 15 seconds to slow down the roast, finally hitting Cool when I was satisfied.  Using BT I tracked P1, and attempted to use a combination of P2 + ABCD settings + '+/-' buttons to set the start of the 2nd leg around, or shortly before, the anticipated start of C1.  I have consistently had problems using this method, as the start of C1 was always much later than anticipated, and I could hear the relay 'click' and see the elements cool down long before the power drop was expected to happen.  As a result, the roasts would take longer to reach C1, C1 would proceed rather slowly, and I may or may not get through C1 before the power went back to 100%.  I assumed that the element was cycling to maintain a particular temperature in the chamber, and so I didn't think to watch the timer and compare the power drop to the pre-programmed drops of the ABCD settings; but I think now that this is exactly what was happening--the power was dropping in accordance with the ABCD setting picked, and pressing +/- before the start of the roast in fact did nothing to extend or shorten the first leg.  My experience seems to support the position that pressing the +/- buttons only adds time to the last leg of the roast, and I will now only use ABCD to target the start of the second leg in any roast.

For those who say that P2 is a 'pet profile', I would point out that I'm using it on Joe's suggestion: http://coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/homeroast/403859  I know he said that's  his personal taste, but as a new user of this device I wanted to try what the developer of the unit likes before striking out into other profiles/settings.  Of all the methods I've used the far, the Behmor is the one that is most 'locked', that is, difficult to adjust on the fly.  Once you press 'start' you're pretty locked in to your pre-roasting decisions until you press 'Cool'.  So the more I know about how the roaster behaves, the more I'll be able to make the best pre-roasting decisions to achieve maximum results.
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BuddhaChrist
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Joined: 26 Aug 2009
Posts: 15
Location: Victoria
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Espresso: Gaggia Carezza
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Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Tue Jan 5, 2010, 3:11pm
Subject: Re: Understanding changes to Behmor roast profiles
 

I agree that P2 is great, especially when roasting beans with indistinct C1/C2 boundaries. I've put about 35 pounds of coffee through my Behmor (probably 12 varieties of bean), and the difference between beans is startling. P1 -> P2 is what was suggested to me by my coffee mentor, and I've stuck with it. I have adjsted the P2 voltage drop to happen at or just after (not before) C1, and it often worked fine. However, it was usually within 30 seconds of the profile drop using the A and B buttons, so +/- didn't matter much.

Is it disappointing that BehmorThing, the Behmor 1600, and reality don't all line up like I'd like them to? Sure. But it's not heartbreaking. I still get to drink damned fine coffee that I roasted myself, and my basement still smells like heaven.

Would the code show what was really happening? Probably. But it's Joe's trade secret. Also, he contracted with a company in China to implement his design: he might not actually have access to it, at least not in an uncompiled version.

He's getting the data, he will analyze it and figure out what's going on, and will share that with us as appropriate.

Now, is there a Behmor Wish-list thread?

 
-Making the world a faster place, one bean at a time - Doug
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