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(Another) Poppery PID controller project
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JGG
Senior Member
JGG
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 1,385
Location: Kentucky, US
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: PID Silvia; PID Alexia
Grinder: Mazzer SJ
Roaster: Hottop D w/HTC+TC4C
Posted Sun May 31, 2009, 7:42am
Subject: Re: (Another) Poppery PID controller project
 

Dana -

Thought I would pass along the results of some refinements I made to the ramp/soak program on my popper.  This profile yielded some of the best Sumatra I have had roasted at home.  Home roasts of island Indonesian beans (Sumatra and Sulawesi) have been major disappointments for me to date, but this batch turned out very nicely.

I also made a very simple Excel spreadsheet that provides a graphical representation of a Delta ramp/soak profile.  The Delta software struggles with plotting the profiles interactively, so this spreadsheet is handy to have.

Jim

JGG: Delta-ramp-soak-trial 4.jpg
(Click for larger image)
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dana_leighton
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dana_leighton
Joined: 11 Jan 2002
Posts: 2,003
Location: Fayetteville, AR
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Isomac Relax; Caferina...
Grinder: Macap MXK; Baratza Vario-W;...
Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: Technivorm; CCD; Melitta
Roaster: Poppery I w/PID controller
Posted Sun May 31, 2009, 10:23am
Subject: Re: (Another) Poppery PID controller project
 

Thanks Jim, that is very exciting! I'm chomping at the bit to get the roaster up and running again.

The $60 (including shipping) laptop I got to run the Delta software should arrive tomorrow, along with some sundry electronics and assembly tools. The bottleneck now will be waiting for the enclosure to arrive, which might take another week, who knows.

I drilled and tapped the holes for the TC probe that screws into the roast chamber, and also installed the bare lead TC you sent me: both in the same place, right where the hot air cascades over the ceramic ridge on its way from the heating element to the fins entering the roasting chamber.

I was tempted to put the bare TC down in the fins area where you did, but I wanted to compare the relative readings I get from the two to see if the contact with the cast aluminum affects the screw-in probe too much.My suspicion is that it will not, that the temperature of the cast aluminum will lag the air temp and not pull too much heat away from the probe. My bigger concern is that the probe will take time to heat up and will not react to air temperature changes as rapidly as the bare TC will. That could be an advantage or a disadvantage. Perhaps a disadvantage during the autotuning, but an advantage during actual roasting, as the sudden fluctuations as the heater turns on and off will not affect it so much? I dunno.

My espresso machine's Giemme box has gone south, but all this electronics work has inspired me to desolder the transformer (which has been implicated by other users as the cause), and replace it with a $2.50 part (plus $9 shipping) -- saving a total of $152.50 over buying a new box. That will help pay for the popper control box! :)

 
Dana Leighton - Espresso hack and CoffeeGeek moderator
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Timmah
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Joined: 1 May 2009
Posts: 11
Location: Kentucky
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Mon Jun 1, 2009, 5:33pm
Subject: Re: (Another) Poppery PID controller project
 

JGG, Question:  Is your ramp from 1C to finish a little fast there?  I roasted some IMV to C+ & the time from 1C to dump @ 425F was 3.75 minutes.  Of course, I'm new to this, would like to know how much to stretch the ramp from 1C to FC+ for the Trapachitos coming.
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JGG
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JGG
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 1,385
Location: Kentucky, US
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: PID Silvia; PID Alexia
Grinder: Mazzer SJ
Roaster: Hottop D w/HTC+TC4C
Posted Mon Jun 1, 2009, 6:30pm
Subject: Re: (Another) Poppery PID controller project
 

Timmah Said:

JGG, Question:  Is your ramp from 1C to finish a little fast there?  I roasted some IMV to C+ & the time from 1C to dump @ 425F was 3.75 minutes.  Of course, I'm new to this, would like to know how much to stretch the ramp from 1C to FC+ for the Trapachitos coming.

Posted June 1, 2009 link

Yes, it was faster than I would like it to be, but not horrible.  I usually shoot for 4 minutes from the beginning of a consistent first crack until end of roast.  This profile gave around 3 1/2 minutes instead.

I would probably adjust this profile slightly by lowering the step at 7 minutes.  Right now, it is set to go to 430F.  I might try reducing this to 425F to see if that would add another 30 seconds to the gap between FC and dumping the beans.

Jim
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Frost
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Frost
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 2,105
Location: Sierra
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Isomac Venus
Grinder: Lelit PL53
Roaster: Poppery I w/variac, MET, BT
Posted Tue Jun 2, 2009, 11:09am
Subject: Re: (Another) Poppery PID controller project
 

Jim, On your Sumatra profile, one thing puzzles me a bit; at 7 minutes when MET setpoint goes to 430F (I assume actual MET ramps quickly here....) but the bean temp probe marches on at the same rate of rise (20-25F/min). My bean probe tends to respond to this much more. BT would ramp around 35+F/min between 8-10 minutes on your profile. (at  8 minutes BT = 300F, MET = 430F) Is the actual MET ramping more slowly here?
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JGG
Senior Member
JGG
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 1,385
Location: Kentucky, US
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: PID Silvia; PID Alexia
Grinder: Mazzer SJ
Roaster: Hottop D w/HTC+TC4C
Posted Tue Jun 2, 2009, 2:07pm
Subject: Re: (Another) Poppery PID controller project
 

Frost Said:

Jim, On your Sumatra profile, one thing puzzles me a bit; at 7 minutes when MET setpoint goes to 430F (I assume actual MET ramps quickly here....) but the bean temp probe marches on at the same rate of rise (20-25F/min). My bean probe tends to respond to this much more. BT would ramp around 35+F/min between 8-10 minutes on your profile. (at  8 minutes BT = 300F, MET = 430F) Is the actual MET ramping more slowly here?

Posted June 2, 2009 link

Hi, Gary -

The MET does indeed ramp kinda slowly going from 330F to 430F.  I don't have a good means of logging the MET at the moment, so I don't have a record of its ramp up.

One of these days I will drag an old laptop outside by the roaster and connect it to the PID.  Then I could log the MET as well as the BT.

Jim
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dana_leighton
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dana_leighton
Joined: 11 Jan 2002
Posts: 2,003
Location: Fayetteville, AR
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Isomac Relax; Caferina...
Grinder: Macap MXK; Baratza Vario-W;...
Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: Technivorm; CCD; Melitta
Roaster: Poppery I w/PID controller
Posted Tue Jun 16, 2009, 9:16pm
Subject: Re: (Another) Poppery PID controller project
 

OK -- Another update.

I have now received the enclosure. I ordered a "Single Slope Box Kit" from Charles Byers: http://home.flash.net/~k3iwk/ - he recommended .063 (1/16") aluminum, which is pretty heavy and maybe overkill. In any event, the kit comes as pieces with no hardware to assemble, but it's easy enough to get some self-tapping sheet metal screws, which I have done. I now just need to drill a small starter hole, and it should go together easily (hope springs eternal!).

The temperature meter I bought was way too unstable for measuring bean mass temperature (it would swing 2 either way when sitting in boiling water). I decided to get a used Watlow 935A from eBay for $43 shipped. It has a great user manual and I am assuming some kind of averaging algorithm for the temperature display that should stabilize it.

I redesigned the front panel after making some more careful measurements, and included a place to mount my Salter timer:

dana_leighton: fp.png
(Click for larger image)

 
Dana Leighton - Espresso hack and CoffeeGeek moderator
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dana_leighton
Moderator
dana_leighton
Joined: 11 Jan 2002
Posts: 2,003
Location: Fayetteville, AR
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Isomac Relax; Caferina...
Grinder: Macap MXK; Baratza Vario-W;...
Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: Technivorm; CCD; Melitta
Roaster: Poppery I w/PID controller
Posted Tue Jun 16, 2009, 9:17pm
Subject: Re: (Another) Poppery PID controller project
 

And the back panel. Inputs for the thermocouples and power cord. Outputs for heater and fan, and 2 grounded outlets, one for the cooling fan, and another just in case.

Next I need to plot the cutouts and get that set to start cutting.

dana_leighton: bp.png
(Click for larger image)

 
Dana Leighton - Espresso hack and CoffeeGeek moderator
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dana_leighton
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dana_leighton
Joined: 11 Jan 2002
Posts: 2,003
Location: Fayetteville, AR
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Isomac Relax; Caferina...
Grinder: Macap MXK; Baratza Vario-W;...
Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: Technivorm; CCD; Melitta
Roaster: Poppery I w/PID controller
Posted Sun Aug 2, 2009, 12:01am
Subject: Re: (Another) Poppery PID controller project
 

After about 6 weeks, the controller unit is now a reality and operational!!!

In the intervening time, I cut out the holes for the components, and started installing the components and wiring the parts together. I had the components and enclosure almost complete, when one day I was driving and saw a sign: "Custom Powder Coating" -- I had to stop and they said they'd throw my parts in with another order for $25, so I said sure! It'll look way better than bare aluminum.

I disassembled the parts, and brought the enclosure pieces in for painting. I was out of town for 2 weeks, but returned a week ago. I then started reassembling and wiring the unit, and just finished it Friday and had it on its first roast Saturday.

I ran a manual roast, of SM's Monkey Blend. The roast is likely awful because I was getting used to the new thermocouple placements and trying to gradually increase the temperature. The first roast went way too fast, and finished at about 9 minutes. The second roast I managed to stretch to 11 minutes - but still too fast in my book. I will try tomorrow with some SO beans, and see if I can't get the manual control down. I also plan to get the PID autotuned and start using it to ramp the heat.

One nice thing about the Delta PID and software is that during manual roasting, I can use the PID to measure bean mass temperature, and graph the temperature rise on the laptop I'm using for the roaster to see graphically if it's rising smoothly along the curve i want.

It's all still very much a work in progress!

Anyway - here is a photo of the innards labeled with the components I used:

dana_leighton: interior.jpg
(Click for larger image)

 
Dana Leighton - Espresso hack and CoffeeGeek moderator
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dana_leighton
Moderator
dana_leighton
Joined: 11 Jan 2002
Posts: 2,003
Location: Fayetteville, AR
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Isomac Relax; Caferina...
Grinder: Macap MXK; Baratza Vario-W;...
Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: Technivorm; CCD; Melitta
Roaster: Poppery I w/PID controller
Posted Sun Aug 2, 2009, 12:02am
Subject: Re: (Another) Poppery PID controller project
 

Here's a link to a web page with more pictures, including the exterior of the completed unit:

Click here

 
Dana Leighton - Espresso hack and CoffeeGeek moderator
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