Bear_B Senior Member Joined: 14 May 2008 Posts: 46 Location: Columbus, OH Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Francis Francis! X1 Grinder: Breville Vac Pot: Cona (I wish!!) Drip: no, French press Roaster: iRoast 2
Posted Thu May 15, 2008, 8:05pm Subject: Advice on roast profile for Guatemalan Huehuetenango
Hi all,
I picked up some Guatemalan Huehuetenango Finca San Vicente SHB from Sweet Maria's for a roasting demo that I'm doing soon. I normally don't drink Central American coffees much at all, so I'm not accustomed to roasting them, and my first few attempts with this one have been very disappointing. I'm using an iRoast 2 and I've tried both a fast (2 min @340, 2@390, 6@450) and a slow (3@340, 2@355, 2@365, 2@375, 6@450) profile with the beans to get roasts in the city-plus to full city range, and I'm just not getting any of the milk chocolate and lemon flavors that Tom's tasting notes suggest are in there. I usually roast island coffees, so I'm wondering if the hard, hard beans necessitate a radically different roasting strategy, or...? Any thoughts?
Posted Sun May 18, 2008, 4:46am Subject: Re: Advice on roast profile for Guatemalan Huehuetenango
Bear_B Said:
Hi all,
I picked up some Guatemalan Huehuetenango Finca San Vicente SHB from Sweet Maria's for a roasting demo that I'm doing soon. I normally don't drink Central American coffees much at all, so I'm not accustomed to roasting them, and my first few attempts with this one have been very disappointing. I'm using an iRoast 2 and I've tried both a fast (2 min @340, 2@390, 6@450) and a slow (3@340, 2@355, 2@365, 2@375, 6@450) profile with the beans to get roasts in the city-plus to full city range, and I'm just not getting any of the milk chocolate and lemon flavors that Tom's tasting notes suggest are in there. . . Thanks in advance!!
Some thoughts. He is using a drum roaster and it is developing the bean differently and presenting a different bean than your air roaster.
The slow profile you offered seems much too long at low temps. On my IRoast2, there is not difference occurring until you hit 375. Sure, the numbers are different but the heat level and fan level remain the same. My IRoast2 runs exceeding hot compare to profiles I see here. No two are alike. I would try a profile of:
> 4@350 > 4@ 420 > 4+@ 440 and finish
Strictly a blind shot at it, but don't stretch out the drying period the way you have. Good luck.
Bear_B Senior Member Joined: 14 May 2008 Posts: 46 Location: Columbus, OH Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Francis Francis! X1 Grinder: Breville Vac Pot: Cona (I wish!!) Drip: no, French press Roaster: iRoast 2
Posted Sun May 18, 2008, 11:01am Subject: Re: Advice on roast profile for Guatemalan Huehuetenango
boldjava Said:
Some thoughts. He is using a drum roaster and it is developing the bean differently and presenting a different bean than your air roaster.
The slow profile you offered seems much too long at low temps. On my IRoast2, there is not difference occurring until you hit 375. Sure, the numbers are different but the heat level and fan level remain the same. My IRoast2 runs exceeding hot compare to profiles I see here. No two are alike. I would try a profile of:
> 4@350 > 4@ 420 > 4+@ 440 and finish
Strictly a blind shot at it, but don't stretch out the drying period the way you have. Good luck.
Thanks! You're right that no two are the same, and mine actually seems to run quite hot -- I suspect I'd get to second crack before I'm out of the 420-degree part of that profile, even. Which really makes it hard to compare profiles across machines.
That said, acting in part on advice I got from Frost on followup from a different thread, I tried a darker roast a couple of days ago -- well into full city, this time, even full+; I'd been scared off before because the beans got so dark so fast -- and a profile with a faster ramp-up that still lingers between first and second -- 3@350, 3@370, 4@390, 4@410, 1@450. I figured that it'd give me a profile that's more like that of a drum roaster, and that the time between first and second might let the sugars caramelize a bit more?? Guessing here. I cut it off a few seconds into second crack.
I let it rest for 36 hours and tried it this morning. The results were astounding. It wasn't even like it was the same bean! I definitely got the milk chocolate, as well as a nut of some sort -- toasted, and kind of unusual, maybe a toasted Brazil nut. It went from being one of my least favorite beans to one of my most favorites. Might have been degree of roast, might have been the roast profile, or the combination of the two -- but the difference was simply not to be believed.
Posted Sun May 18, 2008, 1:16pm Subject: Re: Advice on roast profile for Guatemalan Huehuetenango
Glad to hear you are getting better results from your Guatemala! ( as per your note: no, don't use this profile on the Idido!) Also, if you want to stay at Full City instead of entering second crack, try to keep the same finish time and slow the heaters for the final stretch. Enough heat energy in the beans and you can coast to the Full City finish with very little heat from the roaster. ( I agree with Boldjava: don't stretch the drying and run to first crack. Do the stretch when the beans are 375f+ to finish of the roast)
Bear_B Senior Member Joined: 14 May 2008 Posts: 46 Location: Columbus, OH Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Francis Francis! X1 Grinder: Breville Vac Pot: Cona (I wish!!) Drip: no, French press Roaster: iRoast 2
Posted Sun May 18, 2008, 1:47pm Subject: Re: Advice on roast profile for Guatemalan Huehuetenango
Frost Said:
Glad to hear you are getting better results from your Guatemala! ( as per your note: no, don't use this profile on the Idido!) Also, if you want to stay at Full City instead of entering second crack, try to keep the same finish time and slow the heaters for the final stretch. Enough heat energy in the beans and you can coast to the Full City finish with very little heat from the roaster.
Your question had me thumbing though 2 years of roasting notes (with never quite enough details) to try and answer based on first hand experience, and what is tasted in the cup vs. observed effects/results and what I have read..... There are so many variables that are at work I'm not sure I can isolate just the length of the 'drying phase'. Then there is the question of how long is too long or too short....('stretched' compared to what?)
It looks like early on I spent way too much time trying to develop an 8 minute roast, Then I went the other way to work on a 12-15 minute profile. Most of these were using SHB centrals.
I think the length of the drying phase and the run to first crack (or the 370F+ 'roasting' phase) depends on somewhere between what the roaster and the beans can handle. Some roasters have all the power available needed to get to first crack in under 10 minutes. Others (like the poppery and from what I read on the Iroast) are fully capable of burning and scorching the beans before first crack gets going in under 5 minutes. And this is not just depending on the BTU's you can put into the roaster, but also how effectively that heat can be pumped into the beans. (If the 'maximum environment temperature' is too high, the beans will scorch and the roast is ruined. The likely outcome if a big drum were to try a 6-7 minute run to first crack.)
In my experience with the poppery, I have run the 'drying phase' (the run to about 300F) from around 2 minutes out to 5 minutes. (currently I'm using about 3 minutes) This is where the beans can really tell you how they are doing. I have a fixed power level to keep on track for the first 3 minutes and some beans will already be at 260F at 2 minutes, yellowing and puffing up, while others will still be fairly green and still at 250 by 2.5 minutes. Take the hint from the beans and let them tell you when they are ready to move on. When I see the yellowing, even color development and easy run to 300F at 3 minutes I know the beans are ready to crank up the heat for the next roast segment. Pushing too hard and too fast here mainly resulted in an uneven roast: some beans already browning while others were still fairly green. Based on what I read I decided early on to set the early ramp to 300F at 3 minutes and I have not done much faster since then.
The first thing I noted when I stretched the run to first crack out past about 9 minutes is the intensity of first crack was diminished and the beans did not puff up in volume as much. My taste notes are vague here, just: 'not much origin character'. ( drying was 5 minutes, first crack at 9+ minutes and light. Full City finish at 13 minutes 430F Guatemala Bourbon)
I'll tell you what had me on a bend here to speed up my run to first crack: Idido Misty Valley. An early roast had me running to first crack in about 6 minutes (2.5 minute to 300F) and I finished a City+ at 9 minutes. (I thought this batch was for the trash as an earlier 'runaway' tasted like compost!) So I did another batch in my 'normal' Idido profile: 3 minute to 300F, 7-8 minute first crack, 11+ minute to finish City+ 420F.
The quick batch was an eye opener for me as it was a bomb of intense fruit. A bit edgy and wild but really brought out the 'origin' character of this bean. So I went to work on trying to shorten the roast and figure out what I could do to get more of this in my cup while smoothing some of the edgy bite.
Some of this idea spilled over to the big hard bean Guatemala's I like to keep in my stash, but they still seem to do better with a bit longer/softer run to first crack and a bit longer on the finish. These beans are a bit more about roast flavor development while the Idido can hit a nice 'balance' entirely forward of center....
...anyway, take all this in the context of my cup preferences. I started this latest home roasting exploration with the intent of learning about the different flavors of the coffees of the world (still a spring chicken here....) so much of this is about getting the most 'origin character' of the bean into the cup. I roast generally light and fast to achieve this. Sometimes it's nice to contrast with some 'comfort food' espresso. Chocolate, nuts, smooth acidity... that comes with a slower roast.
Bear_B Senior Member Joined: 14 May 2008 Posts: 46 Location: Columbus, OH Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Francis Francis! X1 Grinder: Breville Vac Pot: Cona (I wish!!) Drip: no, French press Roaster: iRoast 2
Posted Tue May 20, 2008, 12:57pm Subject: Re: Advice on roast profile for Guatemalan Huehuetenango
Wooooow. Thanks for such a detailed and informative reply!!
I've been digging a bit since I asked the question, and I fear that I may have little flexibility with regard to the ramp-up, as I had feared. Some profiles recommended for the iRoast 2 (such as Tom's all-purpose one on the SM website) suggest two minutes at 350 or so, then a jump to a higher temp. I've noticed when using those that the fan speed doesn't actually change until three minutes into the roast, and a few sources suggest that my suspicion about this is right -- that the iRoast is programmed at 350 or so for the first three minutes, regardless of what you tell it to do.
Booo!!!
I mean, seriously, isn't that just a little bit bossy? I think the idea is to ensure that you don't scorch the beans by taking them too hot too fast, and in fact it does a pretty good job of keeping them moving... but why let me believe that the machine is going to 390 after two minutes, when it isn't? All that does is mess with my ability to figure out how times/temps have an impact on roasts. C'mon, guys!
Anyway. You're still absolutely right, if I set my mind to it I can burn the heck out of 'em within about 45 seconds after that three-minute window is over. :-/ But usually they're well over 300 by the time three minutes has passed, often approaching 340 or 350 by the onboard thermometer, usually pretty even and never burnt.
So the advice is, slow down as much as possible without stalling after I hit about 300, and keep it as slow as I can as long as I can until I hit the cooldown phase (whether that's at city+ or full city or whatever)?
Posted Tue May 20, 2008, 2:20pm Subject: Re: Advice on roast profile for Guatemalan Huehuetenango
.....but your thermometer is not in the beans, so that ramp may not be as aggressive as you think. The question is what is the bean temp and what do the beans look like when you cross that point? Get a thermometer in the beans and then decide if you need a variac on the heater to refine the heater control.
Bear_B Senior Member Joined: 14 May 2008 Posts: 46 Location: Columbus, OH Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Francis Francis! X1 Grinder: Breville Vac Pot: Cona (I wish!!) Drip: no, French press Roaster: iRoast 2
Posted Tue May 20, 2008, 2:36pm Subject: Re: Advice on roast profile for Guatemalan Huehuetenango
True; my understanding, though, is that it's somewhat close -- see e.g. Tom's experiments from the SM site (here, graphic included below). There's an initial disparity between the thermometer temp and the temp in the bean mass, but it dwindles by the three-minute mark.
That said, the larger point is right -- a Variac and a thermometer directly in the beans are definitely in my future. I've just maxed out my roasting budget at the moment, and every time my wife looks disapprovingly at the twelve or fourteen pounds of green coffee that I've got lying around, I realize that one more coffee gadget showing up on the doorstep would not go over well at all....
Posted Tue May 20, 2008, 3:08pm Subject: Re: Advice on roast profile for Guatemalan Huehuetenango
That profile looks like it would be a good roast. ,and I just skimmed the IRoast guide Tom wrote at Sweet Maria's. Amazing the effort that went into all that! I applaud the Great Work! they do there. I would suggest you follow his advice on the use of your IRoast. ... I've never used one. WoW! They sell great coffee and go to great length to show you how to properly roast it.
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