Posted Mon Feb 20, 2012, 2:21pm Subject: Re: Starbucks Newest Big To Do
Smart marketing, plus they learned the lessons from Coca-Cola. They didn't just "replace" their classic roast with a new roast - they give the consumer the choice. Implicit in this is how the new blends do - if they flop, then they'll be gone.
Coke made the mistake of not giving the consumer the choice - all they did was test market, determined "new" Coke performed better than Pepsi in blind taste tests (not accounting for initial taste samples vs. taking a beverage home and sipping on it for a longer time), and then replaced coke with "new" coke.
The rest, as they say, is history, and a lesson in how a longtime brand was nearly ruined.
This whole endeavor is pretty low risk for Starbucks - they have a huge fan base with their classic on-the-edge vienna roast, they have the roasting facilities and the distribution and packaging centers, and they have the green coffee supply locked. All these blonde roasts are turn out to be "adds" to the current lineup. At worst, they add a few new customers and provide a choice to already partial regular customers, with no change to the current customer base. At best, they add a bunch more customers and provide a choice to already regular customers, with no change to the die-hards. It's a win-a-little/win-a-lot situation.
Personally, I think they took a much larger risk with their instant microground Via products...
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
Posted Sat Feb 25, 2012, 8:56am Subject: Re: Starbucks Newest Big To Do
And apparently Starbucks has the same issue as the automotive industry. There's the manufacturing and delivery of the product, and there's the point of sale.
Many people hate a particular car model because they hated the sales experience - something which an auto manufacturer has no control over. When a group of dealers decide they will place a +$5K premium on a new hot model, there is little that the manufacturer can say about it. They can do some post-damage control, but that's about it.
I went to a *$s this morning, and of course there was no blonde in the brewer, just Pike Place and Caffe Verona (holy SMOKE festival!). I asked if they would do a press pot of Willow - nope, they only had Veranda and they would only do a pourover.
No press pot? Nope.
There's 30 lbs of Willow out here, I see you have a Ditting, can't you grind some up? No, I'm sorry. We only have Veranda ground.
Okay, gimme a tall Veranda, black, no room for cream.
Three different PBTC asked me if I wanted room for cream. I said no three different times in three different languages, just for fun.
Watched them pull water from their spout on the brewer, the spout is at the top and their measuring cup was about 3 feet drop. Oh well...
Then I was looking at something else, and 3 minutes later grabbed my cup of Blonde Roast Veranda Blend... the first sip was essence of brown water with an overlay of wet cardboard, a hint of coffee. I damn near spit it out.
ME: this is awful!
PBTC: Yeah, most people don't like the Blonde Roast, I think that they'll end up discontinuing it.
ME: <insert scowl here> Well, maybe if you brewed it properly?
PBTC: Well, sir, I did, but I'll remake it if you want.
ME: Yeah, let's do that.
Then I watched PBTC pull this measuring cup of water from the 3 foot drop. When it was full, I asked to see the water in the measuring cup.
PBTC: Why?
ME: Cause I want to see if it's hot.
PBTC: It's hot, sir.
ME: Indulge me.
PBTC: I can't, it's against health regulations.
ME: HUH? Then stick a thermometer in it.
PBTC: Oh, I guess I could... (by now he's getting a bit annoyed) PBTC2! Where's the thermometer?
PBTC2: I'll get it, why do you need it?
(getting kinda abbot and costello here by now).
ME: listen, I just want to see what the temp is, it's been a minute, so dump that water out, pour some more, your buddy will have the thermometer by then, but I can tell you what the temp is just by touch.
PBTC: Okay.
Watch him pour the water, offer the measuring cup to me. I touch it, then dip my finger in it for a half count.
ME: It's about 180°F. You do know that pourovers should be in the 200°F range, right?
PBTC: Oh, I just pulled it from the spout, it's that temperature.
PBTC2: Here's the thermometer.
ME: It will be about 175°F now.
PBTC: (sticks the thermometer in, pulls it out, sticks it in, pulls it out) This thermometer isn't reading right.
ME: Why?
PBTC: because it says 168°F, and I know it's hotter than that.
ME: Gotta microwave?
PBTC: yeah.
ME: well, boil it and check the thermometer.
PBTC: I'll just heat it for a bit and make your pourover, sir.
ME: I'd like the water just off boil.
PBTC: I'll have your pourover in a minute. (proceeds to microwave it for 30 seconds, then I watch his pourover technique - put cup underneath, dump coffee into filter, dump water into pourover, help someone else. 3 minutes later, he calls out a Tall Verona)
ME: (after sampling), Um, I'd really like you to taste this. Cause you're not brewing it right. You ever brew it in the big brewers?
PBTC: (now very annoyed with me) No, because we tried it out with pourovers first, and everyone hates this stuff! You're the only one to ask for it this morning, all the regulars agree it tastes really weak and crappy. Don't you agree?
ME: Well, when I brew it properly, it's better than anything else you have. Hell, Caribou does a better job than you guys for pourovers.
PBTC: Well, we're following all of the guidelines.
ME: Really? Taste this.
PBTC: I know how the Blonde tastes, I don't need to taste it.
ME: Ok, please remake it again, this time, I want it made with boiling water, and I'd like the pour to be at least 30 seconds long, not just dumping it into the cone.
PBTC: <sigh> Ok, but it won't make a difference.
ME: I've already paid for the coffee, here's an extra buck tip, all I ask is you make enough for a grande, and pour off a bit so you can sample it properly brewed. Trust me.
PBTC: What, are you from Corporate or something?
ME: <silent grin>
Needless to say, the third time's a charm. As I watched his eyes light up upon tasting the sample, I feel I may have made the world just a touch better by being a fussy customer and maybe enlightening someone else that there's more to coffee than Vienna roast and creosote. I actually took a few minutes to talk to all three of the PBTC - many of the places in the area did the samples and intro the same exact way, with pourovers, giving away samples, etc.
I advised that they might want to brew a decent batch in the full brewer - it's got much better control over the temp and they're actually really decent brewers, assuming the system isn't short cycled (i.e. the water is hot enough for the next big pot). Sadly, because of many bad reviews of the original samples, they can't justify using up a full pot of either of the Blonde roasts.
I asked if they ever thought of preheating the pourover. No, they weren't told that it needed to be done.
For want of a good brew technique, a good product may be lost.
(Full disclosure: I do not work for *$s, and I did tell them so... afterward)
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
Posted Sun Feb 26, 2012, 7:58am Subject: Re: Starbucks Newest Big To Do
Today, there is hope.
Just across town this morning I went into another *$s to begin the ordeal of a decent cup of coffee (and yes, I already looked around for a decent roaster/specialty around here). To my surprise, they had Veranda brewed and ready to go, JUST brewed with cleaned and flushed brewer. I was the 2nd customer this morning, and the 2nd one to order Veranda.
Actually pretty darn good for a shop coffee. I asked if she (the manager, I think) did the Veranda often, and she said, "oh yeah, we do it three days a week and it sells really well."
Point of sale for large franchises is always an issue. There's "good" McDonalds and "bad" McDonalds, and there's good *$s and ones that can't tell the difference between coffee and sewage, apparently.
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
Posted Sun Feb 26, 2012, 1:28pm Subject: Re: Starbucks Newest Big To Do
Netphilosopher Said:
And apparently Starbucks has the same issue as the automotive industry. There's the manufacturing and delivery of the product, and there's the point of sale.
Many people hate a particular car model because they hated the sales experience - something which an auto manufacturer has no control over. When a group of dealers decide they will place a +$5K premium on a new hot model, there is little that the manufacturer can say about it. They can do some post-damage control, but that's about it.
I went to a *$s this morning, and of course there was no blonde in the brewer, just Pike Place and Caffe Verona (holy SMOKE festival!). I asked if they would do a press pot of Willow - nope, they only had Veranda and they would only do a pourover.
No press pot? Nope.
There's 30 lbs of Willow out here, I see you have a Ditting, can't you grind some up? No, I'm sorry. We only have Veranda ground.
Okay, gimme a tall Veranda, black, no room for cream.
Three different PBTC asked me if I wanted room for cream. I said no three different times in three different languages, just for fun.
Watched them pull water from their spout on the brewer, the spout is at the top and their measuring cup was about 3 feet drop. Oh well...
Then I was looking at something else, and 3 minutes later grabbed my cup of Blonde Roast Veranda Blend... the first sip was essence of brown water with an overlay of wet cardboard, a hint of coffee. I damn near spit it out.
ME: this is awful!
PBTC: Yeah, most people don't like the Blonde Roast, I think that they'll end up discontinuing it.
ME: <insert scowl here> Well, maybe if you brewed it properly?
PBTC: Well, sir, I did, but I'll remake it if you want.
ME: Yeah, let's do that.
Then I watched PBTC pull this measuring cup of water from the 3 foot drop. When it was full, I asked to see the water in the measuring cup.
PBTC: Why?
ME: Cause I want to see if it's hot.
PBTC: It's hot, sir.
ME: Indulge me.
PBTC: I can't, it's against health regulations.
ME: HUH? Then stick a thermometer in it.
PBTC: Oh, I guess I could... (by now he's getting a bit annoyed) PBTC2! Where's the thermometer?
PBTC2: I'll get it, why do you need it?
(getting kinda abbot and costello here by now).
ME: listen, I just want to see what the temp is, it's been a minute, so dump that water out, pour some more, your buddy will have the thermometer by then, but I can tell you what the temp is just by touch.
PBTC: Okay.
Watch him pour the water, offer the measuring cup to me. I touch it, then dip my finger in it for a half count.
ME: It's about 180°F. You do know that pourovers should be in the 200°F range, right?
PBTC: Oh, I just pulled it from the spout, it's that temperature.
PBTC2: Here's the thermometer.
ME: It will be about 175°F now.
PBTC: (sticks the thermometer in, pulls it out, sticks it in, pulls it out) This thermometer isn't reading right.
ME: Why?
PBTC: because it says 168°F, and I know it's hotter than that.
ME: Gotta microwave?
PBTC: yeah.
ME: well, boil it and check the thermometer.
PBTC: I'll just heat it for a bit and make your pourover, sir.
ME: I'd like the water just off boil.
PBTC: I'll have your pourover in a minute. (proceeds to microwave it for 30 seconds, then I watch his pourover technique - put cup underneath, dump coffee into filter, dump water into pourover, help someone else. 3 minutes later, he calls out a Tall Verona)
ME: (after sampling), Um, I'd really like you to taste this. Cause you're not brewing it right. You ever brew it in the big brewers?
PBTC: (now very annoyed with me) No, because we tried it out with pourovers first, and everyone hates this stuff! You're the only one to ask for it this morning, all the regulars agree it tastes really weak and crappy. Don't you agree?
ME: Well, when I brew it properly, it's better than anything else you have. Hell, Caribou does a better job than you guys for pourovers.
PBTC: Well, we're following all of the guidelines.
ME: Really? Taste this.
PBTC: I know how the Blonde tastes, I don't need to taste it.
ME: Ok, please remake it again, this time, I want it made with boiling water, and I'd like the pour to be at least 30 seconds long, not just dumping it into the cone.
PBTC: <sigh> Ok, but it won't make a difference.
ME: I've already paid for the coffee, here's an extra buck tip, all I ask is you make enough for a grande, and pour off a bit so you can sample it properly brewed. Trust me.
PBTC: What, are you from Corporate or something?
ME: <silent grin>
Needless to say, the third time's a charm. As I watched his eyes light up upon tasting the sample, I feel I may have made the world just a touch better by being a fussy customer and maybe enlightening someone else that there's more to coffee than Vienna roast and creosote. I actually took a few minutes to talk to all three of the PBTC - many of the places in the area did the samples and intro the same exact way, with pourovers, giving away samples, etc.
I advised that they might want to brew a decent batch in the full brewer - it's got much better control over the temp and they're actually really decent brewers, assuming the system isn't short cycled (i.e. the water is hot enough for the next big pot). Sadly, because of many bad reviews of the original samples, they can't justify using up a full pot of either of the Blonde roasts.
I asked if they ever thought of preheating the pourover. No, they weren't told that it needed to be done.
For want of a good brew technique, a good product may be lost.
(Full disclosure: I do not work for *$s, and I did tell them so... afterward)
kimberlybosgat Senior Member Joined: 29 Feb 2012 Posts: 19 Location: LA Expertise: I like coffee
Posted Mon Mar 5, 2012, 2:39am Subject: Re: Starbucks Newest Big To Do
Starbucks is really the good place for people to relax, but where is the biggest market for the Starbucks? which country? and waht kind of ingredients that can be taken in the coffee
kayes Senior Member Joined: 18 Nov 2011 Posts: 21 Location: Saskatoon, SK Canada Expertise: I live coffee
Grinder: Baratza Preciso Drip: Bodum Press Roaster: Poppery II
Posted Mon Mar 5, 2012, 2:45pm Subject: Re: Starbucks Newest Big To Do
I've tried their 'blond' brew at the store and press and pour-over at home. Their brew in the store is not very good and lacks body and complexity. The brews I did at home using their Veranda Blend were actually pretty good. It had a pleasant acidity (and I normally dislike tangy coffee) and a nice round body with toasty/chocolatey flavours. These two new blends really require a coffee press or a pour-over to be drinkable.
kayes Senior Member Joined: 18 Nov 2011 Posts: 21 Location: Saskatoon, SK Canada Expertise: I live coffee
Grinder: Baratza Preciso Drip: Bodum Press Roaster: Poppery II
Posted Mon Mar 5, 2012, 2:55pm Subject: Re: Starbucks Newest Big To Do
Netphilosopher Said:
And apparently Starbucks has the same issue as the automotive industry. There's the manufacturing and delivery of the product, and there's the point of sale.
Many people hate a particular car model because they hated the sales experience - something which an auto manufacturer has no control over. When a group of dealers decide they will place a +$5K premium on a new hot model, there is little that the manufacturer can say about it. They can do some post-damage control, but that's about it.
I went to a *$s this morning, and of course there was no blonde in the brewer, just Pike Place and Caffe Verona (holy SMOKE festival!). I asked if they would do a press pot of Willow - nope, they only had Veranda and they would only do a pourover.
No press pot? Nope.
There's 30 lbs of Willow out here, I see you have a Ditting, can't you grind some up? No, I'm sorry. We only have Veranda ground.
Okay, gimme a tall Veranda, black, no room for cream.
Three different PBTC asked me if I wanted room for cream. I said no three different times in three different languages, just for fun.
Watched them pull water from their spout on the brewer, the spout is at the top and their measuring cup was about 3 feet drop. Oh well...
Then I was looking at something else, and 3 minutes later grabbed my cup of Blonde Roast Veranda Blend... the first sip was essence of brown water with an overlay of wet cardboard, a hint of coffee. I damn near spit it out.
ME: this is awful!
PBTC: Yeah, most people don't like the Blonde Roast, I think that they'll end up discontinuing it.
ME: <insert scowl here> Well, maybe if you brewed it properly?
PBTC: Well, sir, I did, but I'll remake it if you want.
ME: Yeah, let's do that.
Then I watched PBTC pull this measuring cup of water from the 3 foot drop. When it was full, I asked to see the water in the measuring cup.
PBTC: Why?
ME: Cause I want to see if it's hot.
PBTC: It's hot, sir.
ME: Indulge me.
PBTC: I can't, it's against health regulations.
ME: HUH? Then stick a thermometer in it.
PBTC: Oh, I guess I could... (by now he's getting a bit annoyed) PBTC2! Where's the thermometer?
PBTC2: I'll get it, why do you need it?
(getting kinda abbot and costello here by now).
ME: listen, I just want to see what the temp is, it's been a minute, so dump that water out, pour some more, your buddy will have the thermometer by then, but I can tell you what the temp is just by touch.
PBTC: Okay.
Watch him pour the water, offer the measuring cup to me. I touch it, then dip my finger in it for a half count.
ME: It's about 180°F. You do know that pourovers should be in the 200°F range, right?
PBTC: Oh, I just pulled it from the spout, it's that temperature.
PBTC2: Here's the thermometer.
ME: It will be about 175°F now.
PBTC: (sticks the thermometer in, pulls it out, sticks it in, pulls it out) This thermometer isn't reading right.
ME: Why?
PBTC: because it says 168°F, and I know it's hotter than that.
ME: Gotta microwave?
PBTC: yeah.
ME: well, boil it and check the thermometer.
PBTC: I'll just heat it for a bit and make your pourover, sir.
ME: I'd like the water just off boil.
PBTC: I'll have your pourover in a minute. (proceeds to microwave it for 30 seconds, then I watch his pourover technique - put cup underneath, dump coffee into filter, dump water into pourover, help someone else. 3 minutes later, he calls out a Tall Verona)
ME: (after sampling), Um, I'd really like you to taste this. Cause you're not brewing it right. You ever brew it in the big brewers?
PBTC: (now very annoyed with me) No, because we tried it out with pourovers first, and everyone hates this stuff! You're the only one to ask for it this morning, all the regulars agree it tastes really weak and crappy. Don't you agree?
ME: Well, when I brew it properly, it's better than anything else you have. Hell, Caribou does a better job than you guys for pourovers.
PBTC: Well, we're following all of the guidelines.
ME: Really? Taste this.
PBTC: I know how the Blonde tastes, I don't need to taste it.
ME: Ok, please remake it again, this time, I want it made with boiling water, and I'd like the pour to be at least 30 seconds long, not just dumping it into the cone.
PBTC: <sigh> Ok, but it won't make a difference.
ME: I've already paid for the coffee, here's an extra buck tip, all I ask is you make enough for a grande, and pour off a bit so you can sample it properly brewed. Trust me.
PBTC: What, are you from Corporate or something?
ME: <silent grin>
Needless to say, the third time's a charm. As I watched his eyes light up upon tasting the sample, I feel I may have made the world just a touch better by being a fussy customer and maybe enlightening someone else that there's more to coffee than Vienna roast and creosote. I actually took a few minutes to talk to all three of the PBTC - many of the places in the area did the samples and intro the same exact way, with pourovers, giving away samples, etc.
I advised that they might want to brew a decent batch in the full brewer - it's got much better control over the temp and they're actually really decent brewers, assuming the system isn't short cycled (i.e. the water is hot enough for the next big pot). Sadly, because of many bad reviews of the original samples, they can't justify using up a full pot of either of the Blonde roasts.
I asked if they ever thought of preheating the pourover. No, they weren't told that it needed to be done.
For want of a good brew technique, a good product may be lost.
(Full disclosure: I do not work for *$s, and I did tell them so... afterward)
The pour-over I got from them the other day was terrible. I watched her make it and I cringed the whole time. I'm actually surprised how poorly trained their staff are now.
Posted Tue Mar 6, 2012, 6:21am Subject: Re: Starbucks Newest Big To Do
kayes Said:
The pour-over I got from them the other day was terrible. I watched her make it and I cringed the whole time. I'm actually surprised how poorly trained their staff are now.
I've seen some people poorly trained at other shops too. I think a lot of it may just be high school kids wanting that cool, barista job -- then realizing it's not as easy as it looks... or like, at chains, the general populace doesn't want the kind of coffee they want to make... or they have to make other things besides JUST coffee drinks, etc.
Posted Sun Apr 29, 2012, 12:10pm Subject: Re: Starbucks Newest Big To Do
Nah, not just poorly trained. Pretty sure I spied the Pour Over procedure instructions a while back. They tell them to pour all the water into the cone at once.
And for some reason I really dislike the Veranda, has too much of a dry nut flavor or something. Almost tannic to me, yet I find the Willow very enjoyable.
Sad that so many Starbucks employees and customers equate good coffee only with something BOLD (Burnt and Ashy)
I think they just like that word.
Hey my cars got a HEMI and my Coffee is BOLD .....
None of that wimpy blonde roast for me, I'm scared I might actually taste something other than creosote.
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