JeffPersson Senior Member Joined: 11 May 2008 Posts: 95 Location: Goodyear, AZ Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Bialetti Moka Pot Grinder: LaSanMarco SM-90A Vac Pot: Yama 8-cup Drip: KBT-741 & VP17-2 Roaster: Poppery I
Posted Thu May 15, 2008, 10:00am Subject: 20 Years of Wandering in the Wilderness, Help Me Find The Path.
WARNING: COFFEE GEEKS PROCEED AT YOUR OWN RISK.
While I would appreciate insight and suggestions from the learned members of CG, I wanted to warn you of the horrors you may read in this post, cover the ears of any small children in the room and remember not to blame me for any discomfort you may feel as you read on, you were warned.
I've been a coffee drinker for 20+ years now. I just joined CG this month, and have been reading the forums avidly, and I've come to one conclusion. I don't know why I drink the stuff.
I'm one of those, extra cream, extra sweetener, coffee guys. You know the ones who would be in heaven if they could take a half gallon of coffee ice cream and heat it to coffee drinking temps. I cringe at the taste of black coffee. For 20 years, my coffee world has been one of fast food coffee, Starbucks, and my all time favorite Dunkin Donuts w/ extra cream and sweetener. I've done the pods thing and used a French press for work (with pre-packed coffee) I reached my personal pinnacle in coffee excellence years ago when I started ordering coffee from Gevalia. It was far better than office coffee and made me the hit of the office, until my 12 cup drip pot flipped the breaker on the line with everyone's workstations plugged into it. Whoops.
I've never considered myself an expert or even an educated amateur when it comes to coffee, but I've always associated myself with it. My dilemma though is I still have no idea why I drink the stuff. I read about people tasting a coffee's "fruity notes", "hints of chocolate" and "slight citrus overtones" and wonder if I wandered into a candy forum. I have no idea what you are talking about. Now I understand these are supposed to be characteristics of the coffee's flavor and often depend on where the coffee is grown, but my experience with the "flavors" of coffee is trying to determine if I need more cream and a 5th Splenda packet in my coffee because that particular day the coffee "tasted wrong".
Since joining CG days ago, I've been reading about home roasting and special grinders; aeropresses, mokas and brikkas; espresso and pucks. I've gone out and found a West Bend Poppery for roasting, bought a 6 and 12 cup Moka pot, looked at ordering a brikka and maybe an Aeropress. I've glared at my pod brewer and shunned my Cuisanart drip coffee maker with the built in blade grinder. I'm sitting here with a cup of Illy Dark Roast Espresso ground coffee (pre-ground) brewed in a 6cup moka pot with cream and Splenda added.
It's been a busy couple days trying to jump in with both feet, and I'm quickly coming to the conclusion I still don't know what I should be looking for in a cup of coffee.
So, I've decided it's probably best to go back to the basics, and learn what I missed at the beginning 20 years ago. Before I get into roasting my own beans, buying $400 grinders and $1K espresso machines I need to start at the first step and learn what it means to have a really good cup of coffee.
So, with the intent of building a strong coffee enthusiast's foundation for the drink, where do you think I should start?
Posted Thu May 15, 2008, 12:02pm Subject: Re: 20 Years of Wandering in the Wilderness, Help Me Find The Path.
You could try what I did, which was a slow progression from canned coffee to local roasters to roasting my own. One thing that has changed, at least in my home town Toronto, is a number of very good cafes that either roast their own or have fresh roasted quality beans, they are your quickest route to discovering what good coffee tastes like. If it is not your cup of coffee you can always go back to the Starbucks of this world without having invested too much time or money.
Posted Thu May 15, 2008, 12:07pm Subject: Re: 20 Years of Wandering in the Wilderness, Help Me Find The Path.
Thanks for an entertaining read. I'm definitely at the newbie level when it comes to identifying flavor notes and a lot of the supergeeky stuff you refer to, but here are some of my thoughts:
It's supposed to be fun. YOU are the one drinking the coffee so YOU get to decide whether you like it or not. As you gain knowledge and experience, your tastes and opinions may change, but your current ones are always and forever valid in the present. Enjoy what you enjoy, without feeling a sense of inadequacy for not having grown out of liking it already.
You can't learn about this stuff by only reading about it. You have to just start trying things (different coffees, brewing methods, etc.) and see how you like them (see the second part of my signature line).
Don't be afraid to revisit things you didn't like initially. Your tastes will naturally evolve and some tastes are acquired through exposure. Experiment with new things in a spirit of exploration, not punishment or training.
Part of the fun of coffee is playing with the toys (equipment). There seem to be two basic philosophies regarding equipment:
Always buy the best (or stretch to buy the best you can) because you will avoid upgrade fever and the frustrations that come with inferior equipment.
Buy the cheapest reasonable quality you can, to gain hands on experience, and you will develop a much better sense of what you want and/or need when it comes time to upgrade.
I tend to favor the second option, but often succumb to the temptation to splurge when I THINK I know what I want.
Just because it happened to you doesn't make it interesting.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
CoffeeRoastersClub Senior Member Joined: 6 Jul 2005 Posts: 2,092 Location: Vernon Expertise: Professional
Espresso: Vintage La Pavoni Lever... Grinder: KitchenAid Pro Line Burr... Vac Pot: Vintage Silex Drip: Aeropress, French Press Roaster: "EL SUPREMO" w/QuikSPIN-CRC...
Posted Thu May 15, 2008, 12:13pm Subject: Re: 20 Years of Wandering in the Wilderness, Help Me Find The Path.
I'll tell you one thing. You definitely made a good choice with the Brikka purchase. Hands down my favorite. I use it with my KitchenAid Proline grinder I purchased for $89 on Amazon, set the grinder at 7 or 7 1/2 (depending upon oilness of beans), grind my own roasted in it, put the coffee grinds in the brikka until full, and away we go.
Posted Thu May 15, 2008, 1:39pm Subject: Re: 20 Years of Wandering in the Wilderness, Help Me Find The Path.
Ah yes... the noob comes to the Oracle of the Coffeegeek and piously asks, "where do I start?"
Welcome, with all sincerity :0) ! We've almost all been where you are. A couple of thoughts:
If you're used to drip coffee, other brewing methods may not be enjoyable, at least not first off: French press, moka pot, espresso. These tend to vary in the result so much that they might take some getting used to. Try them in settings where you don't have to do a lot of investing. For French press, you can probably get that in a restaurant. You have a moka pot but you don't say whether you like it or even notice a difference. Espresso is a whole 'nother beast, and there seems to be a lot of bad to mediocre stuff out there so if you can, try it from a really good shop (with or without milk, either way).
You won't drop the cream and sugar very soon, I think. I came from this approach, mainly because of growing up with bad canned coffee. I've been doing my own roasting for about a year now, and I'm finally at the point where I can enjoy a black cup of coffee, with just a little sweetener. Not always without cream, but about 80% of the time (depends on my mood and method).
Try some fresh beans from a local roaster, if possible. This will give you a starting point of what the beans can be. If you don't have a local roaster, you can get fresh-roasted from the web (I don't do this, maybe others can point the best ones out). The difference here is that it takes some time to get from the shipper to you, so that's why local is better. And don't try the fancy $35/lb stuff... try simple, relatively cheap classics. These can cost anywhere from $8 to $20/lb.
Compare these beans to what you get out of your whirly pop; this will tell you whether you're getting something out of the home roasting thing. Realize that there are higher levels for roasting, but that's a whole other dimension, too.
Grinder. If you're buying fresh beans, you'll need one of these. The whirlyblade can be good for drip, if you do it right, and it's cheap. But you can get decent burr grinders for less than $100 (though they won't be the best). Check the reviews section and make a choice. The challenge here is to balance your expected advancement against your budget. If it looks like it's going to take off to a whole new world, look at it as a long-term investment.
Brewers. These can be cheap-- think French Press or pour-over basket. These are probably the best place to start until you know what you like. The grinder is more important, honestly. The only place where brewers get expensive is in Espresso Land, but you're avoiding that at home for now, right? The high-end drip brewers like Technivorm are really automated pour-over brewers.
Drinking. Slowly wean yourself away from cream. Try a few sips black before you add it. Keep the sugar in for now. Cream mutes flavors, both good and bad, and also lowers the temp-- so don't burn yourself with the black. Figure out if you like the different beans black. Adjust the amount of coffee or water to make it taste better to you without cream; you might be making it stronger to compensate.
Exploration. AeroPress is actually a good device: cheap, durable, and allows total control over the brewing. Vac pot is more finicky to make, requires a good grinder, but produces a flavor that many find preferable. French press is less filtered and more infused, has more "body" because more of the grounds are suspended in the brew.
Espresso. Here is where you can drop a buck or two on machines, grinders, and coffee. You don't use different coffee, just differently roasted perhaps, differently ground, and requiring lots more experimentation to learn how to produce the right result. Simple things will throw it off. So be sure you like it before you invest for it.
MarkPrince Moderator Joined: 19 Dec 2001 Posts: 4,655 Location: Vancouver Expertise: Professional
Espresso: Frankenstein'ed LM Linea Grinder: Anfim Super Caimano Vac Pot: 1922 Silex Drip: Krups Moka Brew Roaster: Hottop
Posted Thu May 15, 2008, 2:50pm Subject: Re: 20 Years of Wandering in the Wilderness, Help Me Find The Path.
Hi and welcome to the website - that was a great read.
I'd echo everyone else's statements, including the part that this is supposed to be a fun exploration, and once it stops being fun, don't do it any longer (or get back on the fun track).
I'd add that the single most important purchase for coffee or espresso in the home is the grinder. Nothing beats the grinder for upping the game, the quality level, (or destroying the quality level, if you get a bad grinder). The KA Proline is often found below $100 these days, and the Baratza line starts at $100 (and you can get it for less if you call around looking for refurbs).
Start with a great grinder, then baby steps. Perhaps an order of $10 or $12 coffees from www.counterculturecoffee.com or www.dancinggoats.com to just see what a "bar" or level of quality coffee you want to have, esp. if you plan to home roast. Get a nice $5 Melitta pour over for your mug, and after fresh grinding your fresh roast, pour off-the boil water evenly onto the grounds saturating them nicely, and enjoy the cup. Stick with that, the simple stuff for weeks, develop the taste and palate.
One thing I've found with people who a) have a good grinder, and b) have great coffee to begin with - they find that with their old levels of sugar, the coffee beverage is actually too sweet. That's where things start to get interesting.
JeffPersson Senior Member Joined: 11 May 2008 Posts: 95 Location: Goodyear, AZ Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Bialetti Moka Pot Grinder: LaSanMarco SM-90A Vac Pot: Yama 8-cup Drip: KBT-741 & VP17-2 Roaster: Poppery I
Posted Thu May 15, 2008, 5:17pm Subject: Re: 20 Years of Wandering in the Wilderness, Help Me Find The Path.
Thanks for the suggestions. I agree that its gotta remain FUN or it's just not worth it.
It sounds like the best thing to do is start with finding a good local source for fresh roasted coffee and have them grind it for me. That would allow me to start testing the right quality of coffee without having to shell out money for a quality burr grinder yet. Since I already own a moka pot and have a Brikka pot on the way, I think I'll also pick up one of the Melita pour over brewers so I can try the coffees I buy with each method and see how the experience differs between brewing methods.
When it comes to grinds is there a list that ranks them from fine to course? I know turkish grind is probably the finest, but I don't know if drip is bigger or smaller than a french press or a moka pot, etc.
Hmmm... maybe the best bet would be to bite the bullet and buy my own grinder so I can vary the grind and try these other brewing methods. I know the Virtuoso is good, but $200 right? Is the KA Proline, lower end Baratza or Capresso Infinity something that would fit my needs as well, or am I going to end up wanting to upgrade down the road if I get one of those? From what I've been reading the main concern is the uniformity of the grind, correct?
Len,
I was looking at your roaster barrels for when I'm ready to roast down the road. I've got one of the RONCO rotisseries that sees little use so it would be perfect for converting to a coffee roaster. The premium version of the roaster is made of stainless while the regular version is alluminum. Does this result in a difference in durability only or does it also have an affect on the roast?
Mark,
I was a bit surprised by the recommendation of the pour over brewer. I had always assumed they were gimmick gadgets. I'll have to pick one up locally. How does this brewing method differ in performance and quality of brew from something like a moka/brikka pot or AeroPress?
Grinding coffee exposes thousands of times more surface area. This is great for brewing but terrible for keeping coffee fresh. My general rule of thumb is to make coffee within a few minutes of grinding. I can taste the difference after 5 minutes, the character changes dramatically within 15 minutes, and if left a few hours it's compost material (to me anyway).
The good news is that any decent grinder will be a good start for brweing drip coffee with a paper filter. The Baratza Virtuoso can be purchased factory refurbished at www.Baratza.com for $130-$150 and the Meastro for $65 (plus shipping of course). I think the Maestro will be enough to let you REALLY taste the difference the artisan-roasted beans make. As a note, I make wonderful filtered drip coffee every day with a $10 melitta cone and a $25 cordless electric kettle (and Baratza grinder with home roasted beans)
Almost any local roast is probably better than canned preground, but some roasters do not understand the art. After you get the brewing basics down enough that you can taste the difference between the canned stuff and the fresh stuff then it might be worthwhile to buy a couple of pounds of the artisan-roasted coffee available online. I would suggest you taste each cup with a sip or two before you add your cream and sugar...make it a small, surface-skimming, slurrrrpy-type sip and savor it so you can try to distinguish the flavors in the cup :-)
Like you, I started out drinking a little coffee with my cream and sugar. I used to love making power-milkshakes with the Starbucks coffee ice cream... And my cappucino's were often flavored with Bailey's or Kahlua
And then I found CoffeeGeek.com (my trusty Krups pump espresso machine was dying and I was researching a new one). I started to learn and finally I bought a used espresso machine and a new grinder. Funny that the grinder alone was more than my originally-planned budget for the machine! And then I started RE-learning to make coffee and espresso. What I have found is that over time my skill improves and so does my palate. As the months passed I used less and less cream and sugar.....
Now I drink my drip coffee black, and I drink straight espresso more often than anything. I still love a good cappucino but no more Kahlua (to be clear, I still like Kahlua, just not in my coffee)
So get an inexpensive decent grinder and start tasting some coffee. You will soon know if you're doomed to become a fanatic.....
I'm not local but they saved me on a visit with excellent roasts (and a great shot). They are serious about the bean. If you don't have a good grinder, have them grind a least enough for a couple three days. This will be better (and you can compare) to your whirly-blade.
Nothing is more important to a good cup of coffee than starting with a good bean properly roasted!
shutterbiker Senior Member Joined: 23 Mar 2008 Posts: 7 Location: denton, tx Expertise: I like coffee
Grinder: german "mocca" hand grinder Drip: melitta pour over,melitta...
Posted Sat May 24, 2008, 7:32pm Subject: Re: 20 Years of Wandering in the Wilderness, Help Me Find The Path.
If the outlay for a good electric grinder is too much, you might try a hand coffee grinder. I bought a used german mocca grinder recently for forty-five dollars. i have been using the plastic melitta pourover and a french press, and am very pleased with the coffee produced.
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