1) The Starbucks Italia makes better espresso than 80% of the shops in Vancouver (and the test model was straight off the shelf, not even "dialed in.")
2) The Jura S9 makes significantly better espresso than the Italia.
3) Jura S9 espresso is good but still inferior to many others because superautos are inherently inferior.
Is this saying that a good automatic is so insanely good that it's better than a machine that makes better espresso than any cafe in Vancouver? Or just that espresso in Vancouver sucks?
I do have an agenda here, because I have an Italia that I think does a fine job....
I think I pulled the Italia comments from my first look, when a cafe-crawl Aaron DeLazzar and I did was still fresh in my mind. Out of twelve cafes visited on Main Street in Vancouver (incl. a starbucks), the best shot we had that day was not from any of the cafes and their commercial machines, but from a demo given to us with the Starbucks super auto - the Saeco Italia.
- Super autos are still very much inferior in terms of shot quality, when compared to traditional machines with a quality grinder used, by someone who pays a bit of attention to the shot pulled.
- Me saying a machine like the Italia or the S9 is better than the majority of cafes out there (in terms of shot quality) is not so much an endorsement of how good super autos are. It's an indictment of how bad the average cafe is at pulling a decent shot.
A note on the Italia, and all other super autos based on that "engine" (configuration design by Saeco, which has made it into Gaggia and Solis machines as well). It's biggest flaw by far is the extra long path the ground coffee has to make from the grinder to the brew group. It can take up to three shot pulls to see a difference if you do a grind adjustment.
This also means that as much as 3 shots' worth of ground coffee is sitting in the machine between pulls. Very bad, and very poor thinking by Saeco.
I was gonna say ... that sure looks like a Krups tip. Glad to hear it is working well (my old Krups steamer actually seems to steam pretty well with a 9-10oz boiler, no thermostat switch, and that single-hole tip).
MPantani Senior Member Joined: 16 Oct 2004 Posts: 124 Location: Seattle Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Isomac Millennium Grinder: Pasquini Moka Drip: Never
Posted Sun Jul 24, 2005, 11:46am Subject: Re: Jura Capresso Impressa S9 Super Automatic
I'm fairly new to great espresso and I know very little about superautomatics, so pardon a basic question:
What's the point of a superautomatic?
It doesn't sound easier to me. With a superauto I still have to foam milk. I have to put beans in the hopper and make adjustments. The only thing I save is to dose, tamp and lock in the portafilter. My machine (Isomac Millennium) makes me time my shots but others don't. To balance this dose-tamp-lock-timing burden, a superautomatic takes more time to clean. It has a much more complicated mechanism and is more likely to need maintenance over the next ten years. Its durability is unproven.
As for the coffee, the conclusion of this article is that a $2000 superautomatic will not make coffee as good as a $400 machine and $250 grinder.
More money, arguably more work (if you consider the cleaning), less reliable, and the coffee isn't as good. So what's the point?
Clearly these machines are popular. Mark, please explain why people like them. And, once they've had them for a couple of years (and deal with cleaning and maintenance), do they still like them?
Why do people buy them? Are people so unused to good coffee that the superauto coffee seems tasty? Or are people so afraid of regular machines or untrained that they are intimidated by them? Or do buyers just like showing off for friends: "all have to do is push a button!"
Nickinpa Senior Member Joined: 11 Jul 2005 Posts: 3 Expertise: Just starting
Posted Mon Aug 1, 2005, 5:57pm Subject: Question for Mark
Mark, you mention that you set the S9 for 150 ml for the special coffee and had amounts listed for the small cup and large cup. Can you post where those measurements are in relation to the sliding scale bar in the setup menu for water quanity.
markcamp1 Senior Member Joined: 20 Aug 2005 Posts: 1 Location: Galena Expertise: Just starting
Posted Sat Aug 20, 2005, 9:36pm Subject: Re: Jura Capresso Impressa S9 Super Automatic
Mark,
Thanks for a really well considered, thoughtful review.
I see now that the AvanteGarde is now available...do you know if the main issues you identified in your review have been addressed in the updated product? I am seriously considering laying out the money for one of these machines....
MarkPrince Moderator Joined: 19 Dec 2001 Posts: 5,462 Location: Vancouver, BC Expertise: Professional
Espresso: KvdW Speedster Grinder: Compak K10 WBC Vac Pot: A bit too many Drip: Clive Coffee Drip Stand Roaster: Hario Glass Retro Roaster
Posted Sun Aug 21, 2005, 11:23am Subject: Re: Question for Mark
Nickinpa Said:
Mark, you mention that you set the S9 for 150 ml for the special coffee and had amounts listed for the small cup and large cup. Can you post where those measurements are in relation to the sliding scale bar in the setup menu for water quanity.
feng Senior Member Joined: 3 Aug 2005 Posts: 4 Location: Brisbane, AU Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Jura Impressa S9
Posted Wed Aug 24, 2005, 4:14pm Subject: Re: Jura Capresso Impressa S9 Super Automatic
Hey all.
I actually bought an S9 before I saw this review, and was glad to see a comprehensive review of it. I'm pretty new to this whole coffee thing, and have a few things that I noted here...
Yup... that preinfusing thing confused the heck out of me too... I'm like... WHAT it's broken already!!?!?!
I have my grind on the finest settings, and I cranked my powder quantity up a bit for the bigger cup (which I use for double shot setting) and find it tends to drip a bit more than usual (not streaming) on the first cup. After that, it's GREAT for all subsequent cups... and I actually get about a 23 second shot (for a double quantity) out of mine. I suppose that's good is it?? :|
Frother is a pain in the ass... dunno if all are like that... but starting to get used to it... are all frother tips like that in the sense that it has a hole at the side for air (I presume), and one at the bottom? And I noticed that someone in the posts above changed theirs? Is this easy to do in the sense that is a replacement easy to find for these things?
I never use the auto frothing thing... find that at least doing SOMETHING manually is fun :) I manage to get pretty nice milk and a few decent latte pours.
I found cleaning it for the first time a breeze... chuck in a tablet... fill up the water, put a container under the spouts, press the clean button and walk away... :) not sure why people consider that more work than a standard manual machine. Aside from the 100 or so cup clean, it auto rinses on start up and on shut down... :)
1 question I do have is (which is the same as what Nickinpa asked)... how do I know how much powder I'm putting in? I had a quick hunt around, but nothing seems to tell me. All they have is a scale like |======||==| which is about where I've got it. Default is a little under half.
Aside from that, I find that it actually makes a nice drop... nicer than a lot of coffees I've tried out there... I think I must be going to the wrong place... I will most definitely get a manual with a decent grinder once I have the bench space to store both :P I like the ability to have a quick semi-decent coffee in the morning (when you're running late for work) :) Plus the wifey is a bit lazy ;) we won't comment what she does to the coffee :) ahhahah
Thanks for a great review... taught me a thing or two :)
Slugline Senior Member Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 37 Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Thu Nov 17, 2005, 2:17pm Subject: Re: Question for Mark
I returned my Saeco Incanto Sirius and picked up a new Jura S9A. I should have stuck with the Incanto. The new S9A doesn't have the program abilities of the old S9. Water can only be program in .5 oz instead of .25oz. No =/- fine tuning, can't program grinder for each program button, etc.
Plus, I can't get micro-foam with wand no matter what I try. I'm surfing on top and plunging tip at appropriate temp. All it produces is bubbles or hot milk. And yes, the sleeve is up? I am using non-fat and/or 2% because this what I see recommended for the most part. However, I did read on this site where they recommend whole milk?
I guess I'll try the Xpress Froth system. I haven't used yet as it looks like a mess to clean up. I was having much better success with pulling shots and frothing on my Incanto Sirius? Plus, it's built like a tank with it's stainless steel body as opposed to the lame plastic on Jura.
Symbols: = New Posts since your last visit = No New Posts since last visit = Newest post
Forum Rules: No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards. No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum. No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum. Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards. Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics. Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies. Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies. Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts. Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
![feng: coffeemachine.jpg](javascript:ImagePopup("/images/20117/coffeemachine.jpg", 666, 499, "feng: coffeemachine.jpg");)
= No New Posts since last visit 