Posted Sat May 28, 2011, 10:08pm Subject: Re: Can These Filters Change the World of Espresso? by Mark Prince
Great article Mark, I'm becoming very excited about these new baskets! Some quick questions for those of you who have really tested these:
Do they tolerate a dose above or below their intended dose? If so, how much?
Myself I use almost exclusively the Synesso Style triple regardless of dose, are the VST baskets really critical of headspace, should one take into account which machine they'll be used on when selecting which size to purchase?
Anyone put one in a Quickmill E61 group yet? ;)
Do these baskets prefer a flat tamper? Are they tamper fussy?
Any other notable changes in basket preparation required or helpful for better, more consistent extractions?
Myself I use almost exclusively the Synesso Style triple regardless of dose, are the VST baskets really critical of headspace, should one take into account which machine they'll be used on when selecting which size to purchase?
Posted Sun May 29, 2011, 5:24am Subject: Re: Can These Filters Change the World of Espresso? by Mark Prince
TheMadTamper Said:
However I'll also say that, other than our new Delonghi using friend in the Q&A threads you're the largest doser I think I've seen here...so that alone may skew your own findings regarding baskets versus others.
That basket has a very different geometry than others....so being polished is not what makes it act differently. And that basket itself is a copy they aquired after we all got interested in that style (see the "great basket group buy" thread for reference).
TheMadTamper Said:
You no doubt tried a "triple" size type in your tests given your dosing habits. I was not at all fond of the EPNW "LM Triple" style, though I'm rarely fond of any triple basket, so YMMV.
I tried them all, but your assumption is based on incorrect logic. My previous dose was 20g in a ridgeless double. I haven't used straight-sided triple baskets (or even Synesso triples) in a very long time (years?).
TheMadTamper Said:
Also of interest, someone on the VST thread on another forum (not HB I don't think), mentioned they found the ridge fit LOOSER in their PF than their LM ridge basket...
This is a function of the portafilter groove dimension and the spring. I have one combination (of portafilter/spring) that allows me to dose outside the PF as long as I'm careful about slipping in. But I may change technique now that I have the DDT working consistently.
Posted Sun May 29, 2011, 10:47am Subject: Re: Can These Filters Change the World of Espresso? by Mark Prince
Thanks Mark for the feedback. What affect does dosing say 16 grams into the 22g triple VST going to have? Muted flavors, less clarity? Too much headspace degrade the espresso?
I'd like to jump on these baskets, I dose (most often depending on coffee) 16g-19g and I'd like to have a "one basket fits all" solution however for more consistent espresso I'll happily add to the pile of baskets I already have...
So glad that someone is finally taking a very serious look at espresso baskets, for too long they have been a distant after thought to the espresso machine and other equipment. I really believe that the basket plays an integral role in the extraction and I hope the VST sets a new standard in basket design philosophy and production standards with this production run. I truly hope that this is only the beginning...
Edit: Looking at the VST site again I realized the 18g double will hold 98% of the doses I most commonly use. Pulled the trigger and am looking forward to really trying this basket out. Thanks Mark for the excellent article and all the others for chiming in, indeed exciting times!
The 22g filter has larger holes and more cumulative hole area than the smaller baskets. So if you dose only 16g in the 22g basket, your flow will be faster than usual. To compensate, you will grind finer. This will result in more fine sediment coming through the larger holes. In theory, you will get a less than optimum mouthfeel and possibly taste more astringency.
Also, the hole area on each basket has been "tuned" so that you can generally go from ristretto to lungo and still keep the extraction yields in a nominal range so that the shots taste good. Significantly underdosing the basket detunes the system and tends to put you into an overextracted region.
But CAN you put 16g in the 22g basket? Sure you can, and for some coffees it might work out for you. It's just not the "optimum" use for the product.
As far as excessive headspace is concerned, if you are one of "those" people who obsesses about getting dry pucks, too much headspace will cause you sleepless nights. But for normal people (ie, people who care more about espresso taste than the texture of the puck), I haven't found that extra headspace is a problem. (In moments like this, I often trot out an old home-barista post for emphasis).
Posted Sun May 29, 2011, 11:44am Subject: Re: Can These Filters Change the World of Espresso? by Mark Prince
Thanks for the detailed response Andy, the thought of actually having a basket "tuned" into a specific dose range sounds exciting and goes to highlight the level of thought and design given to these baskets. Much looking forward to testing these out and finally shedding some of my bad basket dosing habits. :-/
And no, I flunked Puckology 101, I was always goofing off by tasting the espresso...
Posted Mon May 30, 2011, 8:31pm Subject: Re: Can These Filters Change the World of Espresso? by Mark Prince
JonR10 Said:
By the way - I wish these were ridgeless baskets. I prefer to work with the basket removed from the portafilter and I can only do that with these if I also take out the PF spring.
This weekend I modified a portafilter spring to be less restrictive, and now I have no problem slipping the VST baskets in and out. So I have happily gone back to my usual single-dose routine with the basket being prepared and weighed outside of the PF.
YOU......YOU.....dosing under 20g? These baskets ARE a miracle! :) If they could make you comfortable with doses under 20g, they must be doing something right, and I'm bound to like them...despite that they'll actually make me updose around 1.5g my usual to get in that "17g" range for the 18g basket.
That basket has a very different geometry than others....so being polished is not what makes it act differently. And that basket itself is a copy they aquired after we all got interested in that style (see the "great basket group buy" thread for reference).
Yes, I'm aware it's a copied design. As a rule I've never been happy with any triple basket and always went for the smaller ones, though I formerly chose 15g designs before settling on the 18g "polished". I do happen to like that design though. If it weren't for the new hole design I'd be terrified by the VST "wide, flat" geometry. It would remind me of the old LM triple. Those never do well for me.
I tried them all, but your assumption is based on incorrect logic. My previous dose was 20g in a ridgeless double. I haven't used straight-sided triple baskets (or even Synesso triples) in a very long time (years?).
You mentioned that before...I still have no idea how you've managed to cram 20g in a double basket without scraping the screen. I couldn't manage that in any "double" basket short of the LM double (of which 20g never seemed enough.)
I'm amazed, though, given that info that you like the straight side VST design so much (or is it not as straight as it looks? )
This is a function of the portafilter groove dimension and the spring. I have one combination (of portafilter/spring) that allows me to dose outside the PF as long as I'm careful about slipping in. But I may change technique now that I have the DDT working consistently.
Once I start using the VSTs I may refrain from removing the basket when dosing. I may get 6 or so identical baskets (so I don't have to re-zero the scale) and just dose them all out at the beginning of the session) so I can just throw them in for the single dose in the handle.)
Posted Wed Jun 1, 2011, 8:40am Subject: Re: Can These Filters Change the World of Espresso? by Mark Prince
andys Said:
The 22g filter has larger holes and more cumulative hole area than the smaller baskets. So if you dose only 16g in the 22g basket, your flow will be faster than usual. To compensate, you will grind finer. This will result in more fine sediment coming through the larger holes. In theory, you will get a less than optimum mouthfeel and possibly taste more astringency.
Also, the hole area on each basket has been "tuned" so that you can generally go from ristretto to lungo and still keep the extraction yields in a nominal range so that the shots taste good. Significantly underdosing the basket detunes the system and tends to put you into an overextracted region.
But CAN you put 16g in the 22g basket? Sure you can, and for some coffees it might work out for you. It's just not the "optimum" use for the product.
As far as excessive headspace is concerned, if you are one of "those" people who obsesses about getting dry pucks, too much headspace will cause you sleepless nights. But for normal people (ie, people who care more about espresso taste than the texture of the puck), I haven't found that extra headspace is a problem. (In moments like this, I often trot out an old home-barista post for emphasis).
What counts as "significant underdose"....how would 15.5g in the 18g basket fare in your opinion (it would be nice to try it out with my usual dose before ramping up just to keep my comparisons more even to my use of the EP baskets.
Also, since you're talking about roughly standardized dose, I assume your mention of ristretto to lungo is purely a function of fineness?
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