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Establishing an Espresso Evaluation Process by Mark Prince

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Weasel
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Joined: 29 May 2007
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Location: San Jose, CA
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Posted Wed Oct 3, 2007, 10:53pm Subject: Re: Establishing an Espresso Evaluation Process by Mark Prince

For what it's worth, you may be seeing Illy roasteries in the US, and perhaps other parts of North America. I am in retail in California and we carry Illy. I was speaking with our Illy rep last week and when I blurted something to the effect that maybe Illy ought to open their own shops, she stated that it was already in the works. She didn't go into it beyond that, so I am unaware of any time-line. As a minor point of clarification, I saw in one of the discussions about Italian espresso blends and grinds, the author wrote to the effect Illy's Moka blend was not available in No. America. It is available, we carry it. From what I can tell, the Illy Moka product is distinguished so because of the type of grind. It is meant to be used in the stovetop espresso pots, like Bialetti. It seems to me that the blend is the same as the medium roast espresso beans, but I wouldn't swear to it.

StarTzar
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Joined: 1 Oct 2007
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Posted Thu Oct 4, 2007, 8:15am Subject: Re: Establishing an Espresso Evaluation Process by Mark Prince

Mark said that Jay said And one last thing I'd like to bring up. Jay Caragay, who I do consider a pretty good friend, has been going around the tubes, er, Internets of late basically saying this is all about protecting the sacred cow that is Black Cat. I have to agree with Mark here. Jay Caragay is absolutely wrong. Black Cat is not a sacred cow, it is a "Cash Cow". Now, if I was in the coffee business, I would learn how to milk the Black Cat.

damig
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Posted Thu Oct 4, 2007, 8:19am Subject: Re: Establishing an Espresso Evaluation Process by Mark Prince

This is a great article. I do hope you list the barista ratings seperately as well since knowing how forgiving an espresso is (in terms of temperature) is important for those without PIDs. I'm not sure if someone else has mentioned this, but in your article you said: Lavazza "Qualita Oro", (website). This was recommended by two of the five Italians I polled, and is considered the company's top 100% arabica blend available for retail sale (a commercial blend called Pienaroma is supposedly their best, but it's commercial only, not consumer-retail). Pienorama I believe is available to consumers through this website: http://www.sovranastore.com/lavbarpien.html Hope this helps/is not to late. d.

Dom1183
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Posted Thu Oct 4, 2007, 11:01am
Subject: Re: Establishing an Espresso Evaluation Process by Mark Prince

Elwood Said:

So is it also safe to assume that a lavazza or any other fine italian brand could never get over 8.5 seing that 9 time out of 10 is a month Old?
Why then even rate them if we already no you wont like them because there old?

Posted October 3, 2007 link

I agree! They probably shouldn't be rated against freshly roasted brands, but since Coffee Review rated some of them so high, I think it's worth questioning and I thank Mark for doing it.
I've tried Illy and the Lavazza brands and I just can't understand how they can be ranked as high as Coffee Review has ranked them. I understand that everyone has their own individual tastes but certain qualities like the freshness of the bean is the first commandment in coffee and I don't think anyone can argue with that.

brentling
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Posted Thu Oct 4, 2007, 1:34pm
Subject: Re: Establishing an Espresso Evaluation Process by Mark Prince

Dom1183 Said:

Posted October 4, 2007 link

why shouldn't they be rated against fresh coffee?

debunk the myths, challenge the assumptions etc?

I have cupped fresh against stale, and it was obvious which was fresh and which was stale.

However, if you switch that bit off and evaluate for taste - the taste wasn't terrible - that is perhaps something that needs to be reiterated - it's taste you are scoring, and stale coffee still has a taste, it is perhaps not to my liking as much as fresh coffee, it is perhaps harder to work with as an espresso, but when you cup it it is no differnet to work with. It would be unfair to say stale coffee is absolutely awful.

I would suggest that it is preferable to drink the coffee while it is fresher to get the best out of it, but if you can't the better you start the better you end, and one assumes that Illy for example are starting out with some pretty good green coffee... to suggest however that a little plastic (unreliable) one way valve in the bag is going to keep the coffee as fresh as the day it was roasted is a misnomer that should be banned.

just a few more thoughts - have I contradicted myself yet?

Brent

Dom1183
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Posted Thu Oct 4, 2007, 1:59pm Subject: Re: Establishing an Espresso Evaluation Process by Mark Prince

Stale beans are great.....if that's all you have or can get. Sorry I just can't see how you can rate stale beans vs fresh beans. Taste, aroma, presentation etc will never be comparable. It's an unfair match and I anticipate a major imbalance in scores when the results come in. BTW.....any idea when we'll see the results?

StarTzar
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Joined: 1 Oct 2007
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Location: Gatineau
Expertise: I live coffee

Posted Thu Oct 4, 2007, 2:30pm
Subject: Re: Establishing an Espresso Evaluation Process by Mark Prince

Elwood, you asked:

Why then even rate them if we already no you wont like them because there old?

Most here will not understand my response but I'm almost sure that you will.
"Because he's on a mission from God"

and Dom1183 commented:

I've tried Illy and the Lavazza brands and I just can't understand how they can be ranked as high as Coffee Review has ranked them. I understand that everyone has their own individual tastes but certain qualities like the freshness of the bean is the first commandment in coffee and I don't think anyone can argue with that.

Ya right........ and you've probably tried every other brand.
When purchasing beans, do you ask what date they were picked?

MarkPrince
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Posted Thu Oct 4, 2007, 3:12pm Subject: Re: Establishing an Espresso Evaluation Process by Mark Prince

StarTzar Said: Ya right........ and you've probably tried every other brand. When purchasing beans, do you ask what date they were picked? Posted October 4, 2007 link Generally, yes... the question is typically "is this current crop or past crop?" Most true specialty roasters, no matter where they are in the world, can answer this question and most likely answer it honestly. "Past crop" is a hazy term though - for some, it can mean more than 3 months old, for some, it can mean 6, 9, 11 months old (ie, only a few months before they get new "current" crop). Some roasters, including pioneer George Howell (Terroir), and 49th Parallel actually use vacuum packed sub-zero freezing to keep green fresher. It's a hot topic in the industry right now. Mark PS - results coming this weekend.

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brentling
Senior Member

Posted Thu Oct 4, 2007, 3:52pm
Subject: Re: Establishing an Espresso Evaluation Process by Mark Prince

Dom1183 Said:

Stale beans are great.....if that's all you have or can get.
Sorry I just can't see how you can rate stale beans vs fresh beans. Taste, aroma, presentation etc will never be comparable.
It's an unfair match and I anticipate a major imbalance in scores when the results come in.

Posted October 4, 2007 link

easy, I have cupped a flight that had about half fresh / half "stale"

it was a while ago, but I distinctly remember that there was such an obvious difference between the fresh and stale - the difference wasn't that one was obviously better or worse, it was rather the fresh coffee was bolder in taste. Not better, bolder.

The "stale" coffee was by comparison less flavoursome, more mellow from age, but it definitely wasn't nasty - it wasn't something I would choose to drink, but it certainly wasn't diabolical.

so if you turn to a cupping score sheet, how will it compare, if you take sweetness as one component, sweet and stale or sweet and fresh, if the sweetness is there, it's there.

For espresso, the real argument is not is fresh better than stale, it is what is the optimum point to make the espresso - what is the window of opportunity to show the coffee at it's best. While my understanding is that the one way valves do not a lot, and that the best way to serve fresh coffee is to actually server fresh coffee, who is to say that illy etc don't blend with a 5 month point in mind so that the shot pulled 5 months hence is OK?

While this may be playing devils advocate, I still stand on the fresh is best side of the fence, I just don't think that it is impossible to pull a good shot of stale coffee...

the real argument perhaps should be preground versus beans? You are going to throw some preground for espresso bricks into the testing at some stage aren't you Mark!

Brent

StarTzar
Senior Member

Joined: 1 Oct 2007
Posts: 5
Location: Gatineau
Expertise: I live coffee

Posted Thu Oct 4, 2007, 6:19pm Subject: Re: Establishing an Espresso Evaluation Process by Mark Prince

Mark said: Generally, yes... the question is typically "is this current crop or past crop?" Thanks for enlightening me. Now, I wonder when the Dom1183 is going to chime in and say, "I knew that."

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