Posted Sat Jun 16, 2007, 6:52pm Subject: Re: Cafe Culture Downunder by George Sabados
On a different note, I would just like to add that I found the part about quality standards being set by the consumer versus the US having things like the SCAA very interesting. As a student of economics (and a free market advocate) I think that this is one of the crucial keys to raising the quality bar - use the market that cafes operate in to force higher standards. The wonderful thing about free markets, free enterprise and capitalism is that it almost regulates itself. (we need not go into the various market failures here) If the US consumer would demand better quality coffee and espresso, the market would step up and give it to them so they don't go out of business. If I read the article correctly, this is what is going on in the Australian scene already - cafes raise the quality in order to stand out and differentiate themselves and thus make more money. People respond to incentives, (money being the most universal incentive) Why would US cafes have to raise their quality standards and costs when they have people lining up to drink their crap every morning already?
Forgive me if someone already touched on this or if this is a very profound post, because obviously the next question is how to get people to demand better quality or if we just have to wait for our market to become as saturated as some of the markets Sabados mentioned. I just wanted to point out that I agree that "government intervention" like the SCAA isn't the only way to promote better quality. There is amazing efficiency and power in our free market system.
ant Senior Member Joined: 7 May 2003 Posts: 1,046 Location: Brisbane Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: sunbeam em6910 Grinder: sunbeam em0480 Vac Pot: hario syphon Roaster: 1kg sample roaster at work
Posted Sun Jun 17, 2007, 12:44am Subject: Re: Cafe Culture Downunder by George Sabados
Market saturation has really helped to educate the palates of coffee consumers down in Sydney and Melbourne. One could even go so far as to say that cibo has done a lot towards helping educate the Adelaide coffee consumer's palate. Here in Brisbane though, we still need more cafes at a higher quality threshold before people really know what good coffee is. The few that are 'doing it right' are just counted on as good coffee places but joe consumer never really asks why or how that is the case. We really need people to ask those questions and make those conscientious choices before coffee quality can improve in Brisbane. :(
Philosopher Senior Member Joined: 13 Feb 2007 Posts: 188 Location: Australia Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Silvia Grinder: Rocky
Posted Sun Jun 17, 2007, 8:00pm Subject: Re: Cafe Culture Downunder by George Sabados
CaptainJohnLaw Said:
I think that this is one of the crucial keys to raising the quality bar - use the market that cafes operate in to force higher standards. The wonderful thing about free markets, free enterprise and capitalism is that it almost regulates itself. (we need not go into the various market failures here) If the US consumer would demand better quality coffee and espresso, the market would step up and give it to them so they don't go out of business.
I just wanted to point out that I agree that "government intervention" like the SCAA isn't the only way to promote better quality. There is amazing efficiency and power in our free market system.
It is not a given that a free market favours quality e.g. witness Beta versus VCR, Apple versus Microsoft. But on the whole I have to agree that standards are driven by consumer expectation - to which the industry responds.
You may be confusing market saturation with the driving forces for quality. There are plenty of things which are highly visible and commonplace which don't reflect quality. What is popular does not always reflect what is best.
Reminds me of the joke about a Chinese fellow who walks into a McDonalds and tells his companion - 'I think we should dine here - you can tell it's a good place because all the locals eat here as well.'
People will patronise various establishments based on factors outside of quality - image, efficiency, branding, service, familiarity etc etc
I have commented ad nauseum on the following thread about why Barista competitions do little for the market and that more imagination is required to engage the mainstream.
pstam Senior Member Joined: 27 Jan 2004 Posts: 2,305 Location: Beijing Expertise: Professional
Espresso: ECM, SAN MARCO, EURO 2000 Grinder: MAZZER Vac Pot: YES Drip: YES Roaster: YES, HOME STYLE
Posted Mon Jun 18, 2007, 10:06am Subject: Re: Cafe Culture Downunder by George Sabados
MarshallF Said:
Interesting article, especially (to me) on the comparison of Italian immigration groups and their cofffee knowledge.
But, George clearly missed one very sad fact while he slammed U.S. coffee "franchises." While the very best shops tend to be independents, on the whole, the large chain stores are better than independents.
Posted Mon Jun 18, 2007, 6:13pm Subject: Re: Cafe Culture Downunder by George Sabados
A great read, thanks George. I found the history of espresso based drinks in relation to migration very interesting.
Just a few words on the UK scene as it was touched upon in comparative terms. I think it is a lot nearer the Australian/NZ mainly espresso based method than the US brewed one as inferred in the text. Of course the proliferation of Starbucks and other large chains has added to the ratio of espresso machines in use in the UK. Certainly no self respecting cafe or coffee house would be without an espresso machine and they are quite common in small eateries now too. The difference here is that the standard in most small coffee outlets remains poor or worse, but we are beginning to get the occasional excellent independant specialist cafe popping up here and there, and these are generally run by people with passion for coffee.
The problem remains here that the overall standard of barista is still not very good as the concept of a career in coffee making has not yet taken root. Training is often non-existant and the role is seen by many as an infill rather like working in McDonalds for instance. This scenario exists mainly due to the devaluation of the position of barista driven equally by an ignorant consumer base (most have no idea what decent coffee tastes like and have never been exposed to it so know no better) and cafe owners with little or no real knowledge about the product they are selling. For them everything is still about cutting costs rather than offering a world class product at a reasonable price.
There is light on the horizon. Roasters like the gifted Steve Leighton are slowly driving standards up in small coffee houses by supplying COE beans and ultra-fresh bespoke blends, but it is a long road and most of the time it is still safer to have a bucket sized coffee in Starbucks, Costa or similar chains than to risk the horror of most UK coffee houses.
Sorry for going a little OT but it does sit with the content of the article in terms of how coffee culture has developed around the world.
joellawry Senior Member Joined: 5 Feb 2007 Posts: 5 Location: New Zealand Expertise: Just starting
Posted Fri Jun 22, 2007, 4:42am Subject: Re: Cafe Culture Downunder by George Sabados
I have to say though (from a fair viewpoint as a New Zealander) that i do think that NZ and Aussie are missing out on filter and french press coffee too much, much less vacuum brewed (its virtually unheard of over here) and not to be derisive, having so many cafes with espresso machines only is surely more risk than having them with filter machines - i find its much harder to screw up filter coffee than it is to screw up your morning espresso.
philmnz Senior Member Joined: 25 Jun 2007 Posts: 1 Location: Hamilton, NZ Expertise: Professional
Espresso: GB5 Grinder: Robur
Posted Mon Jun 25, 2007, 2:23am Subject: Re: Cafe Culture Downunder by George Sabados
George is very much correct that nz and oz have a 100% espresso culture (in cafes at least) and a proliferation of roasters, i think we have like 200 now in nz, with only 4million people.
And there is still a lot of crap out there, a lot of cafes that don't know what they're doing, a lot of PBTC making coffee, a lot of roasters buying beans off lists, not tasting what they roast, baristas who don't drink coffee!!!! But there are, especially in this city, a lot of people getting it right, and more people drinking smaller milk drinks or just going with black coffee (americanos or espresso), i also very rarely get through a shift without having to demand americano and espresso cups when the dishwasher falls behind.
There are also other significant differences that no-one has touched on though, in nz at least (not sure about oz) we prefer get away from work and escape to cafes, sit, and relax, from the statistics i've seen we do a much lower percentage of take-out drinks.
Cakeboy->> even here the concept of a career in coffee making is barely starting to take root, although it IS getting better, a lot of our customers show a great deal of respect for baristas (we're definately at the very high-quality end of the market though).
I think the biggest impact of the high level of espresso saturation, is the fact that it leads to high sales of home espresso machines, which in turn educate the market, in turn creating demand for quality in the cafes and roasters, we're seeing a lot of this now, people have machines at the office, at home, at their beach houses as well even, and as they learn more they gain greater respect for baristas, but also demand higher standards - hell why go to a cafe if you can make it ten times better yourself...
I think it'll be really interesting to see how all the different markets develop, but at the end of the day, there are so many amazing, hard-working, passionate people involved in our industry, whether it's nz, oz, us, or anywhere else
short_circuits Senior Member Joined: 27 Jun 2007 Posts: 5 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Rancilio Silvia Grinder: Bodum Antigua (modded) Vac Pot: no Drip: no Roaster: not yet...
Posted Wed Jun 27, 2007, 4:15pm Subject: Re: Cafe Culture Downunder by George Sabados
Couldn't help adding another $0.02 as a NZer...
Some of the commenters are quite right - the NZ market is almost 100% espresso, in commercial establishments that serve coffee (ie cafes, bars etc), with filter coffee confined almost entirely to places like conference venues. In a domestic or workplace setting, instant is still in widespread use with french press/preground being 'special' coffee. Within my generation (X/Y) though, french press is the standard with many people having home espresso machines.
Many of these are the department store models frequently derided on this site, and while it's common to see them as a prop in a display kitchen, one rarely sees a grinder - suggesting that may home baristas think preground espresso is ok. This is a real shame, because there is a proliferation of micro-roasteries about (at least in most NZ cities). Some are hit-and-miss, some are consistently very good.
It's also true that much of the cafe espresso is quite average, probably because of the PBTC thing. As more people get into home espresso, and realise that with a bit of effort they can do better than PBTC, hopefully the demand for better quality cafe espresso will increase.
The preference for milky-but-not-too-milky espresso drinks here is an interesting one; I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned the curiously AU/NZ phenomenon of the 'flat white'. I'll leave one of the pro baristi to describe it, but I believe it's close to 1/2 espresso / 1/2 microfoamed milk. It probably has a suitably Italian name in other countries.
wushoes Senior Member Joined: 9 Feb 2006 Posts: 318 Location: Melbourne, Australia Expertise: Pro Barista
Espresso: La Marzocco Mistral and FB80 Grinder: Compak K10 WBC, Robur Vac Pot: Hario and Yama Roaster: Donnie Lee
Posted Wed Jun 27, 2007, 10:57pm Subject: Re: Cafe Culture Downunder by George Sabados
it's essentially a latte served in a ceramic cup rather than a glass...however I make my flat whites with less froth than lattes to make the drink more milky.
Philosopher Senior Member Joined: 13 Feb 2007 Posts: 188 Location: Australia Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Silvia Grinder: Rocky
Posted Thu Jun 28, 2007, 3:51am Subject: Re: Cafe Culture Downunder by George Sabados
philmnz Said:
I think the biggest impact of the high level of espresso saturation, is the fact that it leads to high sales of home espresso machines, which in turn educate the market, in turn creating demand for quality in the cafes and roasters
Couldn't help adding another $0.02 as a NZer... Within my generation (X/Y) though, french press is the standard with many people having home espresso machines.
Many of these are the department store models frequently derided on this site, and while it's common to see them as a prop in a display kitchen, one rarely sees a grinder - suggesting that may home baristas think preground espresso is ok. SH
Interesting to see the NZ experience. The increasing home espresso market seems to be a vastly untapped area. Goes to show that even with espresso saturation on the cafe front (let alone a growing domestic share) - you cannot make any assumptions about overall standards or public expectations.
On the other hand, Once you get the masses savvy, there won't be much room for sub-standard operators looking to cash in on the espresso boom.
Symbols: = New Posts since your last visit = No New Posts since last visit = Newest post
Forum Rules: No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards. No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum. No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum. Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards. Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics. Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies. Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies. Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts. Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
= No New Posts since last visit 