Our Valued Sponsor
OpinionsConsumer ReviewsGuides and How TosCoffeeGeek ReviewsResourcesForums
Articles: CoffeeGeek Columnist Feedback
Espresso Advice - From One Steel Guy to Another, The Cafe Stage
Cafe Espresso Machines
Video reviews, nationwide installation, leasing options... Nuova Simonelli, Rancilio, La Marzocco.
www.seattlecoffeegear.com
 
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered  
Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Discussions > Articles > Columnist... > Espresso Advice...  
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
showing page 3 of 6 first page | last page previous page | next page
Author Messages
IMAWriter
Senior Member
IMAWriter
Joined: 4 Jul 2002
Posts: 5,841
Location: Brentwood, TN
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Bezzera Strega
Grinder: Forte, OE Pharos,...
Vac Pot: Adcraft SS, Yama 8 cup
Drip: Brazen, Kalita, Chemex,...
Roaster: Behmor 1600, CO/UFO combo
Posted Wed Dec 27, 2006, 9:16pm
Subject: Re: Espresso Advice - From One Steel Guy to Another, The Cafe Stage
 

Len...don't forget to tell your friend there is a pretty good roaster right there in Tampa...Caracolillo (sp?)

 
Rob J (LMWDP #187)
My Music Production web site:
www.robertjason.com
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
CraigA
Moderator
CraigA
Joined: 19 Dec 2001
Posts: 11,207
Location: Rexdale, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: PID/PressureMod 2001...
Grinder: BUNN FPG-2 DBC, Baratza...
Vac Pot: Bodum Santos manual, Yama 5...
Drip: Behmor BraZen, BUNN VPR-APS,...
Roaster: Refurb Behmor 1600, BBQ...
Posted Wed Dec 27, 2006, 9:45pm
Subject: Re: Espresso Advice - From One Steel Guy to Another, The Cafe Stage
 

Right on Rob! Caracolillo Coffee Mill: http://ccmcoffee.com/
















.

 
http://twitter.com/CoffeegeekCraig
http://www.facebook.com/craig.andrews.169

Excellent coffee doesn't just happen!
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Contact via AOL Instant Messenger Contact via ICQ Contact via MSN Messenger Link to this post
Worldman
Senior Member
Worldman
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,818
Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Expobar Office Control
Grinder: Cimbali 6/S
Posted Thu Dec 28, 2006, 2:55am
Subject: Re: Espresso Advice - From One Steel Guy to Another, The Cafe Stage
 

One wonders how it is that a "good ol' boy" from Tennessee (Rob) as well as one of our northern neighbors (Craig) know about a roaster in Tampa. Have you guys bought from them? Did you at one time live in/around Tampa?

Len

 
Len
Len's Espresso Blends
www.lensespressoblends.com
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
CraigA
Moderator
CraigA
Joined: 19 Dec 2001
Posts: 11,207
Location: Rexdale, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: PID/PressureMod 2001...
Grinder: BUNN FPG-2 DBC, Baratza...
Vac Pot: Bodum Santos manual, Yama 5...
Drip: Behmor BraZen, BUNN VPR-APS,...
Roaster: Refurb Behmor 1600, BBQ...
Posted Thu Dec 28, 2006, 8:54am
Subject: Re: Espresso Advice - From One Steel Guy to Another, The Cafe Stage
 

Hey Len,

You're darn tootin' Rob's a "good ol' boy" from Tennessee! {;-D
I've talked personally to one of the owners sons who runs the business, Julian Faedo., & have ordered green beans from the company a few years back.











.

 
http://twitter.com/CoffeegeekCraig
http://www.facebook.com/craig.andrews.169

Excellent coffee doesn't just happen!
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Contact via AOL Instant Messenger Contact via ICQ Contact via MSN Messenger Link to this post
MarshallF
Senior Member
MarshallF
Joined: 1 Jun 2003
Posts: 809
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: LM GS/3 MP
Grinder: Mahlkonig ProM; Baratza...
Vac Pot: Hario Nouveau, Bodum ESantos
Drip: Clever Dripper
Posted Sat Dec 30, 2006, 11:10am
Subject: Re: Espresso Advice - From One Steel Guy to Another, The Cafe Stage
 

This was a very nice coffee memoir, Len. But, I have to disagree on a couple of equipment assumptions.

  1. The only A/B blind tests of vibe vs. rotary that I know of, the famous Fox-Schulman Cimbali Jr. Face-off, showed no difference in the cup.

  2. Rotary pumps do not necessarily need to be plumbed in, although it is certainly a convenience. The LM GS3 runs its rotary very nicely out of its own tank.

  3. The jury is still out, but, I think the weight of experience so far shows doserless grinders to be more prone to clumping.

  4. Larger single boiler machines like the Isomacs and Quickmills are quite temperature stable. The small amount of cold water coming into the 800 ml boiler during the shot does not affect the mix in a 2 oz. pour.

  5. Instead of accepting people's need for milk drinks and automatically suggesting an HX, I prefer to urge them toward making better espresso. Once they experience truly great espresso, many people lose interest in cappas and lattes. Your friend can afford coffees from the best roasters in the country to be shipped into Tampa. I would point him in that direction first.

Marshall
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
Worldman
Senior Member
Worldman
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,818
Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Expobar Office Control
Grinder: Cimbali 6/S
Posted Sun Dec 31, 2006, 7:01pm
Subject: Re: Espresso Advice - From One Steel Guy to Another, The Cafe Stage
 

MarshallF Said:

This was a very nice coffee memoir, Len. But, I have to disagree on a couple of equipment assumptions.

The only A/B blind tests of vibe vs. rotary that I know of, the famous Fox-Schulman Cimbali Jr. Face-off, showed no difference in the cup.

Rotary pumps do not necessarily need to be plumbed in, although it is certainly a convenience. The LM GS3 runs its rotary very nicely out of its own tank.

The jury is still out, but, I think the weight of experience so far shows doserless grinders to be more prone to clumping.

Larger single boiler machines like the Isomacs and Quickmills are quite temperature stable. The small amount of cold water coming into the 800 ml boiler during the shot does not affect the mix in a 2 oz. pour.

Instead of accepting people's need for milk drinks and automatically suggesting an HX, I prefer to urge them toward making better espresso. Once they experience truly great espresso, many people lose interest in cappas and lattes. Your friend can afford coffees from the best roasters in the country to be shipped into Tampa. I would point him in that direction first.

Posted December 30, 2006 link

Marshall,

Let me address your points one by one.

Rotary vs. Vibratory pump
While your assertion that the “famous Fox-Schulman…Face off showed no difference in the cup”, my comments never said that there was any taste difference. I only asserted that the rotary was the “best of the best” and I suppose that you do not challenge this. A rotary pump is more robust than the typical vibratory pumps one finds in espresso machines.

AFAIK, a rotary pump will be damaged if it cavitates, i.e. is not pumping a full head of liquid. In other words, when the water supply is cut off - as in when the reservoir becomes empty while the pump is running. Of course, it is not absolutely necessary to assure an uninterrupted supply of water, but the resulting damage is costly and easily avoidable by merely plumbing the machine to the water supply.  

Another aspect of the rotary pump is its pressure regulation. Where a machine having a vibratory pump makes use an OPV to shunt water to drain (usually the drip tray) in the event of over-pressure, a rotary pump (at least those used in espresso machines) have an internal pressure regulator which simply shunts the over-pressure water from the pump outlet back to the pump inlet, a sort of “short circuit”, if you will. This adds to the convenience of the rotary pump since the drip tray is not receiving this water and requires less emptying. Also, it is presumed that someone who is plumbing in their machine water supply will also plumb the drip tray to drain.

In addition rotary pumps are quieter than vibratory pumps, though this is of little import as the noise of the loudest vibratory is marginal.  

Apart form all of this, 2 of the 3 machines I recommended for Joe use vibratory pumps.

Doser vs. doser-less grinder
Typical doser-less grinders may be prone to “clumping” but 2 of the 3 grinders I recommend (the Mazzer Mini E & Cunill) have that funnel thing on the front. I have used a Cunill for ~2 years, and it is NOT subject to the clumping of which I have seen others complain. It is assumed that the Mazzer Mini E will also not have any clumping because of its funnel.  

The Macap may have some clumping, but should be no more than my son-in-law’s doser-less Rocky. I have used his grinder for days at a time and find that “clumping” is little more than a “Geek concern”, i.e. things over which we Coffee Geeks obsess that have little or no effect “in the cup”.  OMG!!! Am I declaring that I am NOT a flat-earther?

Single boiler vs. HX
I could start with one of my (too many) per peeves: why do we call non-HX machines  “single boiler” to differentiate them form HX machines - as if an HX machine had more than one boiler? Anyway…I will use the common nomenclature of single boiler for non-HX machines and HX machine for, er…HX machines.

You mention the Isomacs and have a Zaffiro which is a very nice machine having an 800ml boiler.

BTW, 800ml = ~27 oz. Ergo, a 2 oz. shot is 7.5% of the entire boiler volume (2/27). Let us assume that your boiler is always full at the start of a shot (& there is reason to believe that it is not always full at the start of a shot) and that you pull a typical 2 oz. shot. You are exchanging 7.5% of the boiler volume within the 25 second duration of the shot. If you are aiming for a temperature at the brew head of 192-194F, I would guess that your boiler temperature is ~210F (or 372 degrees in Kelvin). Let us also assume that the incoming water temperature is 70F (or 293K).

The average temperature of the water in the boiler at the end of the shot is then (372K x 92.5%) + (293K x 7.5%), which is 366K, or roughly 199F-- for a temperature drop of 11 degrees F.

The temperature drop of the brew group will be slightly less-- let's say 7 or 8 degrees-- but it is certainly not negligible-- especially when many who have PID'd or charted their brew temperatures notice as small as a two degree change in brew temperature.

The larger volume of the HX machines recommended to Joe WILL result in a more stable temperature profile throughout the shot.

Milk based drinks vs. straight espresso
You advise: “Instead of accepting people's need for milk drinks and automatically suggesting an HX, I prefer to urge them toward making better espresso. Once they experience truly great espresso, many people lose interest in cappas and lattes.”  Hmmm, perhaps. However, Joe has had espresso with me in many fine cafes throughout the World and, like me, he mostly prefers short cappuccinos (~6 oz.). I do find that I drink a lot more straight espresso than in the past, but still make capps and machiattos. In addittion, many of my guests do not drink any coffee and are quite pleased to get a micro-foam hot chocolate. Like me, Joe entertains a lot of folk and has a lot of house guests. The wait for a single boiler machine to come up to temperature is quite inconvenient once you get used to instantaneous frothing which is what you enjoy with an HX machine.

Len

Hot chocolate:

Worldman: CIMG1925 - web2.jpg
(Click for larger image)

 
Len
Len's Espresso Blends
www.lensespressoblends.com
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
MarshallF
Senior Member
MarshallF
Joined: 1 Jun 2003
Posts: 809
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: LM GS/3 MP
Grinder: Mahlkonig ProM; Baratza...
Vac Pot: Hario Nouveau, Bodum ESantos
Drip: Clever Dripper
Posted Mon Jan 1, 2007, 10:51am
Subject: Re: Espresso Advice - From One Steel Guy to Another, The Cafe Stage
 

Worldman Said:

Single boiler vs. HX
I could start with one of my (too many) per peeves: why do we call non-HX machines  “single boiler” to differentiate them form HX machines - as if an HX machine had more than one boiler? Anyway…I will use the common nomenclature of single boiler for non-HX machines and HX machine for, er…HX machines.

You mention the Isomacs and have a Zaffiro which is a very nice machine having an 800ml boiler.

BTW, 800ml = ~27 oz. Ergo, a 2 oz. shot is 7.5% of the entire boiler volume (2/27). Let us assume that your boiler is always full at the start of a shot (& there is reason to believe that it is not always full at the start of a shot) and that you pull a typical 2 oz. shot. You are exchanging 7.5% of the boiler volume within the 25 second duration of the shot. If you are aiming for a temperature at the brew head of 192-194F, I would guess that your boiler temperature is ~210F (or 372 degrees in Kelvin). Let us also assume that the incoming water temperature is 70F (or 293K).

The average temperature of the water in the boiler at the end of the shot is then (372K x 92.5%) + (293K x 7.5%), which is 366K, or roughly 199F-- for a temperature drop of 11 degrees F.

The temperature drop of the brew group will be slightly less-- let's say 7 or 8 degrees-- but it is certainly not negligible-- especially when many who have PID'd or charted their brew temperatures notice as small as a two degree change in brew temperature.

The larger volume of the HX machines recommended to Joe WILL result in a more stable temperature profile throughout the shot.

Posted December 31, 2006 link

Good rejoinders. Let me respond to the HX/non-HX assuptions above. I've measured these things. So, I have a pretty good idea of what goes on in a large E61 "single boiler." Mine runs off a PID with its probe inserted into the boiler, measuring a point about mid-way between the E61 inlet and outlet. Your "averaging" computation does not apply in the real world, because the incoming cold water does not mix much with hot boiler water over the 25 seconds of the pour and because of the effects of the plumbing and brewhead in the water's path to the cup.

During the 25 or so seconds of the pour, the boiler water at its measuring point does not drop more than 1.8C, staying mainly about 1C below the beginning point. At the brewhead, unlike an HX, the brewhead and brew water temperature actually rise during the pour by about 2C during the first 5 seconds and then stay flat. I have repeatedly measured the brewing temperature with a K-type thermocouple draped over the lip of a filled portafilter, feeding a cheapie Chinese multimeter. Not a Scace device and Fluke, I'll grant you, but reasonably accurate (or at least very consistent on my instrument and to my taste).

The temperature drop from boiler measuring point to brewhead, by the way, is about 10C. I use the PID to adjust for different roasts and keep a record of what my favorite temps are for the 10 or so blends I most frequently brew.

So, to sum up, this arrangement gives a great deal of consistency for very low-volume, home use, if milk frothing is a minor consideration. I think it is far superior to the long flushes and guesswork necessary with a home HX that is only used for one or two shots at a time. Of course it blows for a party. But my middle-aged friends are mostly asking for de-caf or tea by the end of a long dinner anyway. :-)
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
Worldman
Senior Member
Worldman
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,818
Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Expobar Office Control
Grinder: Cimbali 6/S
Posted Mon Jan 1, 2007, 6:54pm
Subject: Re: Espresso Advice - From One Steel Guy to Another, The Cafe Stage
 

MarshallF Said:

I've measured these things. So, I have a pretty good idea of what goes on in a large E61 "single boiler." Mine runs off a PID with its probe inserted into the boiler, measuring a point about mid-way between the E61 inlet and outlet.

Posted January 1, 2007 link

All that we can be sure of is that you can know the temperature at that point, i.e. where the probe is mounted.  

MarshallF Said:

Your "averaging" computation does not apply in the real world, because the incoming cold water does not mix much with hot boiler water over the 25 seconds of the pour and because of the effects of the plumbing and brewhead in the water's path to the cup.

Posted January 1, 2007 link

hmmm...see above. In the meantime, let me consider this.

MarshallF Said:

During the 25 or so seconds of the pour, the boiler water at its measuring point does not drop more than 1.8C, staying mainly about 1C below the beginning point. At the brewhead, unlike an HX, the brewhead and brew water temperature actually rise during the pour by about 2C during the first 5 seconds and then stay flat. I have repeatedly measured the brewing temperature with a K-type thermocouple draped over the lip of a filled portafilter, feeding a cheapie Chinese multimeter. Not a Scace device and Fluke, I'll grant you, but reasonably accurate (or at least very consistent on my instrument and to my taste).

Posted January 1, 2007 link

Noted.

MarshallF Said:

The temperature drop from boiler measuring point to brewhead, by the way, is about 10C. I use the PID to adjust for different roasts and keep a record of what my favorite temps are for the 10 or so blends I most frequently brew.

Posted January 1, 2007 link

Noted.

MarshallF Said:

So, to sum up, this arrangement gives a great deal of consistency for very low-volume, home use, if milk frothing is a minor consideration. I think it is far superior to the long flushes and guesswork necessary with a home HX that is only used for one or two shots at a time...

Posted January 1, 2007 link

Now, I am stumped. Why do you not require long cooling flushes with your machine? My understanding is that the long cooling flush is required due to the overheating of the E61 GH caused by its thermo-syphon circuit. Since your machine has an E61, why is it not overheating at idle? Is this because of the lower brew temperature at which your boiler is maintained?

Len

 
Len
Len's Espresso Blends
www.lensespressoblends.com
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
MarshallF
Senior Member
MarshallF
Joined: 1 Jun 2003
Posts: 809
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: LM GS/3 MP
Grinder: Mahlkonig ProM; Baratza...
Vac Pot: Hario Nouveau, Bodum ESantos
Drip: Clever Dripper
Posted Mon Jan 1, 2007, 7:16pm
Subject: Re: Espresso Advice - From One Steel Guy to Another, The Cafe Stage
 

Worldman Said:

Now, I am stumped. Why do you not require long cooling flushes with your machine? My understanding is that the long cooling flush is required due to the overheating of the E61 GH caused by its thermo-syphon circuit. Since your machine has an E61, why is it not overheating at idle? Is this because of the lower brew temperature at which your boiler is maintained?
Len

Posted January 1, 2007 link

Ah, we come back to the essential difference between the HX and non-HX E61 (and why some do not consider a non-HX to be a true E61 brewer). The HX version (which probably accounts for 99.9% of the E61's in the world), circulates the boiler's steam temperature water through the brewhead. This is fine in constant commercial use. But at home, the longer it sits idle, the closer the brewhead comes to the steam temperature of the water circulating through it. Thus, the need for long, cooling flushes.

In a non-HX E61 the circulating water is the same boiler water that is used for brewing. The water does not reach steam temperature until (and unless) you flick a switch moving the boiler into steam mode. Because the brewhead radiates heat into the cooler air of the room (and because the thermosyphon effect is reduced in the cooler environment), it is actually helpful to flush the water for a couple of seconds to get rid of this cooler "radiator water" before brewing starts.

Marshall
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
alanfrew
Senior Member
alanfrew
Joined: 19 Dec 2001
Posts: 640
Location: Melbourne
Expertise: Professional

Posted Tue Jan 2, 2007, 1:07am
Subject: Re: Espresso Advice - From One Steel Guy to Another, The Cafe Stage
 

Worldman, you made an interesting set of assumptions in your calculations, most of them unfortunately wrong. Marshall's figures show the correct "real world" behaviour of the Zaffiro. If you're going to calculate temperature changes inside an espresso machine, you HAVE to take into account the effects of plumbing geometry and passive heating via the metal in the system.

The E-61 group is a thumpin' great radiator of heat which essentially hums away at boiler temperature. With the Zaffiro, that means <100C under normal operating conditions, unlike a HX machine.


Alan
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
showing page 3 of 6 first page | last page previous page | next page
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
Discussions > Articles > Columnist... > Espresso Advice...  
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered     Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
Discussions Quick Jump:
Symbols: New Posts= New Posts since your last visit      No New Posts= No New Posts since last visit     Go to most recent post= Newest post
Forum Rules:
No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards.
No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum.
No SEO style postings will be tolerated. SEO related posts will result in immediate ban from CoffeeGeek.
No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum.
Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards.
Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics.
Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies.
Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies.
Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts.
Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
Don't suffer bad espresso
Package deals on the best machines from Izzo, Quick Mill, VBM, La Marzocco & more.
www.clivecoffee.com
Home | Opinions | Consumer Reviews | Guides & How Tos | CoffeeGeek Reviews | Resources | Forums | Contact Us
CoffeeGeek.com, CoffeeGeek, and Coffee Geek, along with all associated content & images are copyright ©2000-2014 by Mark Prince, all rights reserved, unless otherwise indicated. Content, code, and images may not be reused without permission. Usage of this website signifies agreement with our Terms and Conditions. (0.366464853287)
Privacy Policy | Copyright Info | Terms and Conditions | CoffeeGeek Advertisers | RSS | Find us on Google+