MarkPrince Moderator Joined: 19 Dec 2001 Posts: 5,462 Location: Vancouver, BC Expertise: Professional
Espresso: KvdW Speedster Grinder: Compak K10 WBC Vac Pot: A bit too many Drip: Clive Coffee Drip Stand Roaster: Hario Glass Retro Roaster
Posted Fri Dec 22, 2006, 11:41am Subject: Re: Espresso Advice - From One Steel Guy to Another, The Cafe Stage
Hola folks -
on the "spend more on the grinder than the espresso machine" thing - if I ever stated it that way, sorry for the confusion. My mantra has been and continues to be "don't skimp on the grinder". Also "the grinder should be your first consideration, then the espresso machine".
I've also been quoted as saying I've made better espresso on a $400 grinder and a $250 espresso machine than I have on a $4,500 espresso machine with no grinder, or preground coffee.
Obviously, by the time you get up to prosumer machines, you're going to be spending more on the espresso machine than the grinder. But there's still plenty of consumers out there who'll drop $1000, $1,500 on a top of the line machine and not buy a grinder, instead "saving up for it, and using lavazza right now... so why does my espresso suck? The machine is not doing its job!" (grin).
Worldman Senior Member Joined: 16 Nov 2004 Posts: 1,790 Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Expertise: Professional
Espresso: Expobar Office Control Grinder: Cimbali 6/S
Posted Fri Dec 22, 2006, 10:42pm Subject: Re: Espresso Advice - From One Steel Guy to Another, The Cafe Stage
JohnPark Said:
Thanks Justin. I just checked the UPS tracking and it says my shipment has an "exception" due to bad weather. It's on a train, so how bad would the weather have to be?!! Looks like I'll be drinking press pot for Christmas after all. -JP
Posted Sat Dec 23, 2006, 6:17pm Subject: Re: Espresso Advice - From One Steel Guy to Another, The Cafe Stage
I am enough of an enthusiast to have a E61 (Andreja Prem) and Mazzer Mini E, but I'd be reluctant to recommend that kind of setup for someone who isn't really necessarily all that interested in the process. This may be the kind of situation where a better superauto is the best choice, maybe the Nuova Simonelli Microbar, if the user is well-heeled and wants user tunability, or one of the superautos carried by Williams-Sonoma, which has stores in Tampa, should there be service or return needs.
alsterling Senior Member Joined: 28 Dec 2005 Posts: 682 Location: Dana Point, CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: La Spaziale S1 (Had Expo) Grinder: Macap M4 & Gaggia MDF Vac Pot: Not yet... Drip: Capresso MT-500 & Melitta... Roaster: Hottop Digital
Posted Sat Dec 23, 2006, 7:55pm Subject: Re: Espresso Advice - From One Steel Guy to Another, The Cafe Stage
Len..... thanks for taking the time to crank out a down-to-earth article on machine selection for home espresso newcomers. (I'd say Pittsburgh Blue-Collar kinda' down-to-earth, but wouldn't want anyone to take it the wrong way!) The background story well supports your recommendations. I think we've all seen, participated in or debated appropriate responses to posts that read something like, "New to espresso, what do I buy!". It even drags me out of the shadows!
Your article has inspired some thought on the subject. What I'd love to see, although it may steal the thunder from many of our responses, is as thorough as possible video that explores this, very much like you constructed your article. If you've seen photos of Chris' showroom in Albany, then imagine someone doing an instructional walkthrough of each machine. I'd like to see a video that starts with a basic primer of terms and such, then goes on to typical historical needs voiced by buyers, and then a demo of three major groups of machines and grinder combinations; single boiler, HX and Dual Boiler, with some time spent on lever machines. There could be, for instance, three setups within each group. Maybe it's out there and I've not seen it?
Coffee_Wombat Senior Member Joined: 18 Jan 2006 Posts: 9 Location: San Jose/Diego Expertise: I love coffee
Grinder: Zassenhaus, Maestro Plus Vac Pot: Chambord FP Drip: Scand. Presto Roaster: iRoast I
Posted Sun Dec 24, 2006, 2:02am Subject: Re: Espresso Advice - From One Steel Guy to Another, The Cafe Stage
I see, thanks for clearing up the confusion on grinder vs espresso machine costs. I was planning on getting a mazzer mini soon, but don't have nearly enough for a decent espresso machine. I'd be using it for a french press :|
Worldman Senior Member Joined: 16 Nov 2004 Posts: 1,790 Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Expertise: Professional
Espresso: Expobar Office Control Grinder: Cimbali 6/S
Posted Sun Dec 24, 2006, 4:15am Subject: Re: Espresso Advice - From One Steel Guy to Another, The Cafe Stage
CHenry Said:
I am enough of an enthusiast to have a E61 (Andreja Prem) and Mazzer Mini E, but I'd be reluctant to recommend that kind of setup for someone who isn't really necessarily all that interested in the process.
hmmm...another "interesting" point! The thing with Joe is that he has been drinking espresso nearly as long as I have and drinks it as much as I do (at least, when it is available to him). He knows good espresso. As far as his interest in "the process" - OR - his diligence in "the operation", of course, neither he nor I could know that at this stage. Hence, he very well may be wasting his $$ on such a setup - BUT ONLY IF HE DOESN'T CHOOSE TO LEARN TO USE IT AND THEN USE IT REGULARLY.
If, however, you are suggesting that one needs to start with the usual steam toy or low end pump machine and a low grade burr grinder, I must ask: why? Why can't someone who KNOWS proper espresso and has the $$ to buy good equipment, start with good equipment? I find that pulling a good shot is MUCH EASIER with my Expobar & Cunill than it ever was with my Coffee Gaggia & MDF.
Having said that, back when we had the Cimbali setup (Jr. & Jr. grinder) at the office my barista skills as well as Nik's were pretty lacking (compared to what they are today). The Cimbali was, perhaps, an extravagance - but one that the company could well afford. I wonder what my skills would be if we has kept those machines back in 1998, when the company was sold?
CHenry Said:
This may be the kind of situation where a better superauto is the best choice, maybe the Nuova Simonelli Microbar, if the user is well-heeled and wants user tunability, or one of the superautos carried by Williams-Sonoma, which has stores in Tampa, should there be service or return needs.
Here, I have to differ with you - emphatically. I can not think of any situation where I have gotten a good or even decent espresso or cappuccino from a superauto. Can you?
Whatever one felt about the goodness or not-so-goodness of the coffee beans at Starbucks, you used to be able to get a competently pulled shot or cappuccino. Since they went to all superautos, the best you can get is mediocre. What kind of friend would I be if I consigned Joe to a life of mediocrity?
cannonfodder Senior Member Joined: 14 Dec 2004 Posts: 873 Location: Dayton, Oh Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ElektraA3,Faema2G, Isomac,... Grinder: Cimbali, Mazzer Vac Pot: Dont smoke pot or vac it. Drip: Press pot Roaster: Hottop, drum roaster
Posted Sun Dec 24, 2006, 7:43pm Subject: Re: Espresso Advice - From One Steel Guy to Another, The Cafe Stage
I have been away from CG for a while. I finally got all of my HB duties caught up and hopped over to see what is new and surprise. I opened the article and thought hay I know him! LOL. I enjoyed it.
I liked the fact that there were no super automatic machines in your selection. The focus was on good espresso, not convent espresso. I have never gotten a shot from a super auto that was passable. With some modest skill and minimal time, the least expensive option will still produce a shot far better than the best shot a super automatic could ever produce.
Give us an update when he makes a decision. It would be interesting to see what he chooses.
Worldman Senior Member Joined: 16 Nov 2004 Posts: 1,790 Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Expertise: Professional
Espresso: Expobar Office Control Grinder: Cimbali 6/S
Posted Sun Dec 24, 2006, 11:04pm Subject: Re: Espresso Advice - From One Steel Guy to Another, The Cafe Stage
cannonfodder Said:
I have been away from CG for a while. I finally got all of my HB duties caught up and hopped over to see what is new and surprise. I opened the article and thought hay I know him! LOL. I enjoyed it.
I liked the fact that there were no super automatic machines in your selection. The focus was on good espresso, not convent espresso. I have never gotten a shot from a super auto that was passable. With some modest skill and minimal time, the least expensive option will still produce a shot far better than the best shot a super automatic could ever produce.
Give us an update when he makes a decision. It would be interesting to see what he chooses.
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